allow 7 man Conscripts PPSH41 or PTRS

this lays maybe in the facts pgrens are close compat specialists and much more expansive.

Their weapon profile very much says they are NOT close combat specialists.

once more: it was postet that cons lose to all other mainline infantry. thats wrong with ppsh...right is: they win easily any Engagement vs them when equipped with ppsh and use sprint

Go play soviets, do this and report your findings.

once more: it was postet that cons lose to all other mainline infantry. thats wrong with ppsh...right is: they win easily any Engagement vs them when equipped with ppsh and use sprint

You make it sound like sprint ppsh cons will win a 1v1 against all other units. This is wrong if there any decent distance, no concealment or no smoke. This make the upgrade that cost an entire commander slot extremely situational unlike Volk MP40, Assault Sections or Cav Riflemen because they all get smoke.
As it sits now the ppsh are really half baked mainline assault units that are not worth there price or there slot in a commander. And that makes me sad because I like to see the greatest variety of commanders and units used on all factions because it makes the game more fun for everyone involved.

And that is the whole point. Either you spam conscripts and you have to invest in their upgrades or you use a couple of them in a mixed force and you only by the bare essential like AT grenades.

Yes, and it's utterly moronic. Why would you punish mixed compositions and reward spam in what's supposed to be a combined arms game?

Yes, and it's utterly moronic. Why would you punish mixed compositions and reward spam in what's supposed to be a combined arms game?

because the game is moving away from combined arms. a faction with long and short ranged elite infantry stock "needs" their core infantry to be able to fight any and all infantry from long or short range, to be able to deny cover and build it, clear garrisons and bust engines because despite their plethora of unavoidable support they are in-de-pendant.
now soviet are penals or bust as their team weapon tier is as wet a noodle as the infantry it would be accompanied by, there is discussion of tommies are being watered down design wise so they can be more flexible and durable grens, and rifles, well rifles were the only infantry that was actually DESIGNED to be the overwhelming majority of their army, everything in the usf lineup is supposed to be about supporting them so idk fine there i guess.

at least ost's team weapon-centric design hasnt been desecrated yet

Yes, and it's utterly moronic. Why would you punish mixed compositions and reward spam in what's supposed to be a combined arms game?

I mean I've been asking this question ever since the release of WFA. Soviets and Ost were actually designed that way, but WFA is where blobs/spamming really kicked off imo

Putting penal upgrade behind AT nade sidetech is a great idea. Still think there needs to be some more encouragement for con builds but this is a start

Not sure if it's relevant, but with the amount of PPSH submachine guns used in rifle divisions in 1944-1945, you'd think the conscript assault package would be a stock upgrade, especially considering STGs are stock for OKW.

I've been saying this for years. Every faction has a weapon upgrade for their maineline except Soviets. The Soviet faction in it's current form is just ridiculous, no SMG's in the one army that used them most? Preposterous! Not to mention Soviet vs OKW matchups are typically a small cadre of expensive troops against large swarms of cheap disposable troops, I am of course talking about Penals vs Volksgrenadiers. Absolutely backwards!

lets resume:

- 6(7) models
- 240mp
- t0
- sprint
- merge
- sandbags
- upgradeable with flame nades and at nades
- now with ppsh nondoc (pgrens dps)

yeah..why not...lol

it is like give all advantages without any disadvantages to one unit.

u can have cheap price, good dps, good survive/ abiltys

choose two. NOT THREE.

Unless you’re OKW (Volks, PanzerFussiliers), USF (Riflemen) or UKF (Infantry Sections).

Not picking on factions or those who play them, but my point is that all factions will always pick the best choice available to them unless there are multiple good choices.

Conscripts are just not good enough right now to ever pick them over Penals even with the 7 man upgrade or doctrinal upgrades.

Adjusting the 7 man upgrade (nerfing it) and then allowing it to work with a doctrinal upgrade (buffing it) would give Soviet players a choice of two viable infantry options when combined with the right doctrine.

Unless you’re OKW (Volks, PanzerFussiliers), USF (Riflemen) or UKF (Infantry Sections).

Not picking on factions or those who play them, but my point is that all factions will always pick the best choice available to them unless there are multiple good choices.

Conscripts are just not good enough right now to ever pick them over Penals even with the 7 man upgrade or doctrinal upgrades.

Adjusting the 7 man upgrade (nerfing it) and then allowing it to work with a doctrinal upgrade (buffing it) would give Soviet players a choice of two viable infantry options when combined with the right doctrine.

in which case (unit) u have the cheapest available price, highest dps and most tools?
Volks are midly pricy, have average dps and good ability
Panzerfussleiers are midly pricy, have low dps and only less tools
rilfes with all upgrade have high price, less tools and over average dps (compared to AI specialists)
IS with all upgrade have high price, good ability and average dps (compared to AI specialists)

Okay let me propose this

PPSH upgrade in it's current form becomes a non doctrinal upgrade when either tier 1 or tier 2 have been unlocked for greater Conscript flexibility.

7th man upgrade becomes doctrinal.

In this case I think some of the PPSH abilities could be replaced with SVT if it fits the commander better then 7th man.

Here is how I would revamp the current PPSH commander. I will also change some other abilities in this example for wholeness sake.


Soviet Reserve Army:

Partisan Tank Hunters 2CP

7th Man Upgrade 2CP (fits better then SVT because reserve divisions don't get the newest best equipment)

Conscript Repair Kit 5CP

For Mother Russia 6CP (ability based on will power and love for the motherland fits the theme well)

ML20 howitzer 8CP


Advanced Warfare:

Radio Intercept 0CP

T34-85 0CP

Weapons Crate Drop 1CP (Advanced semi/fully automatics fit the theme of this commander better then 7th man)

Conscript Repair Kit 5CP

IL2 Anti Tank Rocket Strafe 10CP (something to replace the garbage gun strafe without having another commander with the loiter one)


Soviet Shock Army

Weapon Crate Drop 0CP (Shock divisions where know for there high amount of automatics so this only makes sense and SVT have less overlap with Shocks compared to PPSH Cons)

120MM Mortar 2CP

Shock Troopers 2CP

B4 203MM howitzer 8CP (the ML20 and the 120MM are too similar in use and effect to warrant to both be in the same commander. The B4 is different enough to the 120MM while still being artillery and fitting the theme of the Shock Army)

IL2 Sturmoviks Attacks 12CP


Guards Rifle Combined Arms Tactics

KV1 0CP

Guards Rifle Infantry 2CP

7th Man Upgrade 2CP (Fits a dedicated rifle division better, also there are guards to pick up the slack)

ML20 howitzer 8CP

IL2 Sturmoviks Attacks 12CP


Conscript Support Tactics

KV1 0CP

Weapon Crate Drop 1CP (this commander has no elite infantry so more flexible mainlines seem like the better choice)

Commissar Command Squad 2CP (To support you Conscripts, fits the theme)

Conscript Repair Kit 5CP

Incendiary Artillery barrage 7CP


The best part about these changes is that they in theory would require very little fine tuneing and time investment because it's just swapping abilities around.

I know it's a bit of a text wall but i hope someone from the balance team sees this and takes it into cosideration.

Show Spoiler

Sounds good, especially the Advanced Warfare IL2 attack replacement. Soviet Reserve would still be trash though. Tank hunter partisans suck, ML20 is very situational, Conscript Repair Kit is meh. Only the 7th man combined with For Mother Russia would be a replacement for elite infantry and that's about it for that doctrine imho. You'd be better picking any doctrine with Guards. Honestly, picking a doctrine that has "reserve" in its name already suggests that you pick it if there is nothing else available.

Sounds good, especially the Advanced Warfare IL2 attack replacement. Soviet Reserve would still be trash though. Tank hunter partisans suck, ML20 is very situational, Conscript Repair Kit is meh. Only the 7th man combined with For Mother Russia would be a replacement for elite infantry and that's about it for that doctrine imho. You'd be better picking any doctrine with Guards. Honestly, picking a doctrine that has "reserve" in its name already suggests that you pick it if there is nothing else available.

I don't know man, recently I have been using counter attack tactics a lot and 7 man FMR is nothing to laugh at. They have a tendency to snipe retreating models. I will agree that from all of the suggestions that one is the weakest. But it's still miles ahead of what it is now too be honest. Also dont forget, you can also get some squads with PPSH in this and use them in tandem with 7th man squads and FMR that could be a potent combination if played well.

idk why but id actually prefer 7 man cons to ppsh cons... far more flexible and useful... not as much brute force as ppsh cons but alot more finesse... and actually feels tactical as opposed to blob and rush penal style

Actually problem is not conscripts. The problem is every other mainline/starting infantry except for conscripts and grenadiers are overperforming. Thats why cons feel like they need upgrades.

7 man cons match up pretty well vs volks and even obers though... the real issue with soviet T2 play is the joke of a machinegun that theyre stuck with... at least grens can fall back on the 42

idk why but id actually prefer 7 man cons to ppsh cons... far more flexible and useful... not as much brute force as ppsh cons but alot more finesse... and actually feels tactical as opposed to blob and rush penal style

Late game in a 2v2 or more, the 7 man cons seem to survive much better and are cheaper to reinforce. There are also fewer opportunities to close to range where the PPSH does good. Even when I use a doctrine with PPSH's, I usually only upgrade 1 or 2 squads, depending on if I'm going to get Shocks or Guards.

idk why but id actually prefer 7 man cons to ppsh cons... far more flexible and useful... not as much brute force as ppsh cons but alot more finesse... and actually feels tactical as opposed to blob and rush penal style

Late game in a 2v2 or more, the 7 man cons seem to survive much better and are cheaper to reinforce. There are also fewer opportunities to close to range where the PPSH does good. Even when I use a doctrine with PPSH's, I usually only upgrade 1 or 2 squads, depending on if I'm going to get Shocks or Guards.

PPSH cons had the penal vibe to them... i primarly used them as an ostheer response in 1v1s ages ago... and the vibe to them was eerily similar to penals... but with oorah and mortar smoke to rush MGs and achieve critical mass... quite stale and boring gameplay if you ask me...

Honestly my biggest gripes with ppsh cons are two:

They get the vet 0 target size of cons, which means they get absolutely nuked when they try to approach more than a single squad.

Their reinforce cost is a bit high.

I actually really like your suggestion pancake... A lot
Although unlocking after t1 or t2 would be too soon. You might need to tie them to the molotov/ at nade. Perhaps t1/2 and the sidegrades or automatically at t3?

I actually really like your suggestion pancake... A lot
Although unlocking after t1 or t2 would be too soon. You might need to tie them to the molotov/ at nade. Perhaps t1/2 and the sidegrades or automatically at t3?

Thank you, I spend a good while thinking about it.
Correct me if im wrong but is soviet tier1/2 not a the moment the other factions get their first tech building up? So the PPSH would come at the same time as the MG42/STG. Maybe they could be bundled with the grenades like so:

Conscript utility upgrade:
PPSH41
Molotov
AT nade

200 manpower
50 fuel

Maybe adjust the pricing of the PPSH accordingly in this case.