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Partisan Tactics Rework

23 Jul 2020, 06:26 AM
#1
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4899

Unlike my usual ideas this one is more spit-bally and I'm not sure how well parts of it will work, mainly the Sappers and Rally Points. Nevertheless I've decided to post it, because Partisan Tactics is kinda a crap shoot anyway. The main ideas I was trying to build off of were something dynamic and befitting the theme of an irregular force supporting a regular army.

Partisan Tactics


Partisan Sappers



Partisan Sappers cannot capture weapons, but they can salvage weapons and wrecks. They can plant timed demolition charges and landmines. They may also construct Rally Points to act as forward retreat and reinforcement for Partisan squads only (includes irregulars); the Rally Point can also deposit an unmanned MG 34 or GrW 42 to be taken and used. Partisan Sappers may be recalled for a partial (possibly full?) refund.
Sappers may appear as female Partisans, because we miss 'em. I wanted them to be exclusively female (hence cannot capture weapons because that causes issues with voiceovers) but I cannot find a squad icon to use for that. I'm not sure if one ever existed.

Partisan Squad (SMG)



More or less the same as Live. Partisan SMG squads can be used to ambush enemies from buildings. After entering the field they may be used to camouflage in cover and ambush enemies with a First Strike bonus. Alternatively, they may be recalled for a partial refund.

Tank Hunter Partisans



More or less the same as Live. Tank Hunter Partisan squads can be used to ambush vehicles from buildings. After entering the field they may be used to camouflage in cover and ambush enemy vehicles. Alternatively, they may be recalled for a partial refund.

Spy Network



For 15 seconds, all Units and Buildings are visible on the mini-map. This does not give vision for off-map strikes, but you can see the unit type, if not in garrison.

Soviet Irregulars



Battle hardened partisans formed of Red Army personnel encircled during Operation Barbarossa. These men have recently linked up with the Red Army and may be enlisted from Headquarters.
(Soviet Irregulars are equipped with Obersoldaten Kar 98k's and a Grenadier MG 42)
23 Jul 2020, 07:06 AM
#2
avatar of Willy Pete

Posts: 24

Some cool ideas but ithink removing mark target from the commander is a pretty big nerf

I think removing radio intercept makes sense, spy network is enough recon
23 Jul 2020, 08:20 AM
#3
avatar of A table

Posts: 249

Do your soviet irregulars cost 340 mp and 34 mp reinforcement?
23 Jul 2020, 08:23 AM
#4
avatar of RollingStone

Posts: 166

Some cool ideas but ithink removing mark target from the commander is a pretty big nerf

I think removing radio intercept makes sense, spy network is enough recon


Maybe they can add some sort of heavy/immobilizing AT-mines for sappers or irregulars, using skins of american M20 mines(or maybe even demo skin)? Would be a nice trade-off. Mark target have literaly zero counter-play, with it allies can kill any german tank within 30 seconds.
23 Jul 2020, 09:19 AM
#5
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4899

Some cool ideas but ithink removing mark target from the commander is a pretty big nerf

I think removing radio intercept makes sense, spy network is enough recon

I viewed Mark Target as kind of a filler ability, it's in several other doctrines already, and has nothing to do with Partisans. But it is useful for sure, I did wonder if I should have kept it and somehow combined Sappers and Irregulars, but it is impossible to reconcile; Sappers are meant to be early game and no better than unupgraded Combat Engineers at fighting while Irregulars are late-game elites who are very good at infantry combat.


jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 08:20 AMA table
Do your soviet irregulars cost 340 mp and 34 mp reinforcement?

I haven't price checked Obersoldaten lately but I assume that's where you got the numbers from? I intentionally left exact numbers out, but yes they would have a premium cost. Not as much as Obers because I didn't plan for them to have the magic MG 34, but too expensive to spam or blob.
23 Jul 2020, 09:42 AM
#6
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3399 | Subs: 2

Why does every commander idea have to include superunits?

Makes no sense.
23 Jul 2020, 09:51 AM
#7
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2203 | Subs: 2

I like some ideas like the irregulars and the sappers, but I think the commander is overloaded with infantry choices like this while not having any late game play.

Mark target should probably stay, sappers - as interesting as the idea might sound as a pitch - would be too much work to implement and should go. What would also fit the commander would be SVT or DsHK drops and the propaganda artillery.

EDIT: Almost forgot the ATG camo ability. Would fit in nicely as well.
23 Jul 2020, 11:00 AM
#8
avatar of Partisanship

Posts: 256

I'm with Hannibal on this. There's a lot of infantry play here. I'd rather there be more commander abilities that focus on utility and ambush mechanics. There was a fun idea by the mod from AE where you instead merged partisan squads into one ability, which spawned them before you chose which upgrade you wanted (similar to stormtroopers). This would free up slots for something else. I am lenient towards anti-infantry landmines, as they're congruent to the theme.
23 Jul 2020, 12:29 PM
#9
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17410 | Subs: 8

Why does every commander idea have to include superunits?

Makes no sense.


Because unless unit is so stronk it plays by itself, it can't be considered at all by low skill players who make vast majority of balance suggestions.

The ONLY thing Partisan commander needs is vet improvement for AI partisans, like 5th man at vet2 or 3, this way they would still scale into late game and be able to contest some infantry, but would still be at disadvantage in any open fight they didn't opened with ambush.
23 Jul 2020, 14:20 PM
#10
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3060 | Subs: 7

One cool idea someone posted once is to shuffle around the costs of the commander abilities to make them more realistic and unique. I.e. IRL you wouldn't employ Partisans, but rather just arm them, so deploying Partisan squads ingame could cost munitions rather than manpower. Then abilities like the Spy Network make use of employed agents so they could cost manpower rather than munitions.

Switching the costs would be an interesting concept and it would certainly give some unique flavour and strategic choices for the commander, though I wouldn't know how balanced it would be without thorough testing. And very likely impossible to implement at this stage.
23 Jul 2020, 15:03 PM
#11
avatar of EtherealDragon

Posts: 1721 | Subs: 1

4 Infantry call-ins is probably too much for a single commander, I'd probably replace one of them with the Booby Trap from Urban Defence. Some pretty cool ideas though! You could maybe use some of those idea for other commanders like Reserve Army as well to spice them up if there is ever another commander revamp...
23 Jul 2020, 15:04 PM
#12
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 2203 | Subs: 2

One cool idea someone posted once is to shuffle around the costs of the commander abilities to make them more realistic and unique. I.e. IRL you wouldn't employ Partisans, but rather just arm them, so deploying Partisan squads ingame could cost munitions rather than manpower. Then abilities like the Spy Network make use of employed agents so they could cost manpower rather than munitions.

Switching the costs would be an interesting concept and it would certainly give some unique flavour and strategic choices for the commander, though I wouldn't know how balanced it would be without thorough testing. And very likely impossible to implement at this stage.


It would be very interesting what the balance team (or you in case you can't speak for all of them) still deem to be possible regarding the scope of changes.

Now with Andy potentially gone from CoH2 support, will there be any balance updates anymore? Apparently there will be a map patch, but anything further?
I know the general direction was that changes to units will become smaller in order to not break a unit and leave it in a broken state should Relic suddenly completely cut support. But this state makes all discussions quite blurry, since there are many interesting ideas out there like OPs, but even if the changes are not that huge nobody knows if they are still realistic or not.

Any chance you could elaborate on that or share personal thoughts on the situation?
23 Jul 2020, 20:42 PM
#13
avatar of KiwiBirb

Posts: 785

I also agree with Hannibal on the fact that this rework would be an infantry overload, though I really like the flavour.

Right now, PartySans are rather weak, but buffing them would seem weird as their name implies that they are untrained civilians, who would perform poorly in combat.
To rectify this, I think just renaming partisans and AT partisans to irregulars and AT irregulars & then buffing their stats would be better, though they could still be buffed without the name change.

Some other changes I think would be good is replacing mark target with AT gun camouflage, and then give partisans/irregulars a “sabotage vehicle” ability, which would apply the same debuffs as mark target.

I think the above changes would be a nice buff and a good thematic change - after all, how are partisans involved with the mark target plane (unless the plane is being flown from behind German lines by partisans)



Edit:
I would also replace radio intercept with “disrupt supply lines”
This ability would double reinforcement times for enemy infantry and half the repair rate of enemy engineers for the duration of the ability (25 - 35 seconds)

This would again be more thematically fitting, as I don’t think partisans had anything to do with intercepting and decoding radio transmissions, and would be buff as spy network provides plenty of recon and radio intercept’s primarily use was to warn of rakketens creeping up on your light vehicles, which is no longer a problem
23 Jul 2020, 23:00 PM
#14
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17410 | Subs: 8

I also agree with Hannibal on the fact that this rework would be an infantry overload, though I really like the flavour.

Right now, PartySans are rather weak, but buffing them would seem weird as their name implies that they are untrained civilians, who would perform poorly in combat.


Well then, let me share a history knowledge with you:
A whole fucking lot of soviet partisans were whole encircled battalions and armies who hid in civilian population, trained willing civilians and coordinated actions with HQ when communication was possible.
Many of them were civilians indeed, but many of them were full trained soldiers in plain clothes.

To rectify this, I think just renaming partisans and AT partisans to irregulars and AT irregulars & then buffing their stats would be better, though they could still be buffed without the name change.

Unneeded because of the above.

Some other changes I think would be good is replacing mark target with AT gun camouflage, and then give partisans/irregulars a “sabotage vehicle” ability, which would apply the same debuffs as mark target.

I think the above changes would be a nice buff and a good thematic change - after all, how are partisans involved with the mark target plane (unless the plane is being flown from behind German lines by partisans)

AT partisans perform well enough as supplemental or surprise finishing blow AT unit, its they AI ones who are lacking hard, being muni and especially mp bleed.
24 Jul 2020, 03:40 AM
#15
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4899

Why does every commander idea have to include superunits?

Makes no sense.

Trying to make up for the lack of late-game potential otherwise by giving them a more powerful Partisan themed unit. In a way it's an interesting inversion to both Partisans, who are cheap and arguably expendable, and Soviet Infantry who generally fair better at closer ranges. Using an MG 42 from Grenadiers is a pretty modest choice of weapon Machine Gun, ironically most of their firepower comes from the three Kar 98's.


I like some ideas like the irregulars and the sappers, but I think the commander is overloaded with infantry choices like this while not having any late game play.

Mark target should probably stay, sappers - as interesting as the idea might sound as a pitch - would be too much work to implement and should go. What would also fit the commander would be SVT or DsHK drops and the propaganda artillery.


EDIT: Almost forgot the ATG camo ability. Would fit in nicely as well.

Yeah that was my other main concern, it's too infantry heavy, but I didn't know what to do about that. I didn't want to part with the Sappers or the Irregulars, and getting rid of the Partisans or Tank Hunters is right out... I actually did want to add the SVT Crate Drop because the idea of dropping weapons was fitting. I also wanted the ability to produce whole weapon teams like in ToW too, but couldn't fit it in anywhere. I settled on the Rally Point being able to spawn select crew weapons instead as a compromise to both.


There was a fun idea by the mod from AE where you instead merged partisan squads into one ability, which spawned them before you chose which upgrade you wanted (similar to stormtroopers). This would free up slots for something else. I am lenient towards anti-infantry landmines, as they're congruent to the theme.

This suggestion seems like a good one, combine Partisan/Tank Hunters and have them act more like Stormtroopers. The main drawback here is you can't just pop an SMG squad out of a building. Maybe it would work if the Sappers could upgrade to the Tank Hunters instead?


jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 12:29 PMKatitof
The ONLY thing Partisan commander needs is vet improvement for AI partisans, like 5th man at vet2 or 3, this way they would still scale into late game and be able to contest some infantry, but would still be at disadvantage in any open fight they didn't opened with ambush.

I disagree, Partisans struggle because they're a one-trick pony. The Tank Hunters remain relevant for sure because they have a Panzerschreck and a snare, but the Partisans with SMG's simply don't carry much value once they've popped out of the house. That's why I added the ability to send them off map for a refund.


One cool idea someone posted once is to shuffle around the costs of the commander abilities to make them more realistic and unique. I.e. IRL you wouldn't employ Partisans, but rather just arm them, so deploying Partisan squads ingame could cost munitions rather than manpower. Then abilities like the Spy Network make use of employed agents so they could cost manpower rather than munitions.

Switching the costs would be an interesting concept and it would certainly give some unique flavour and strategic choices for the commander, though I wouldn't know how balanced it would be without thorough testing. And very likely impossible to implement at this stage.

About not actually employing them yourself, I had actually considered this outlandish idea that one ability could be a Partisan Resistance in which uncontrollable individual Partisans with a random array of weapons are spawned camouflaged throughout the target sector to attack enemies for the duration of the ability. Individual Partisans may also attempt to retreat off-map when their health goes low instead of dying. It was a really cool idea, but I don't know the feasibility of it, and depending on limitations it might ultimately be far too strong (let me just plop this in my opponent's fuel/cutoff) or far too weak (the opponent has a tank or two and just deletes all the partisans piecemeal). Was still a cool idea though and probably a heck of a lot more interesting than 4 call-ins, just untested and potentially unfeasible...


I would also replace radio intercept with “disrupt supply lines”
This ability would double reinforcement times for enemy infantry and half the repair rate of enemy engineers for the duration of the ability (25 - 35 seconds)

The problem with something like that is there's really no counterplay, nothing the other player can do to mitigate or avoid it, it'll just happen. It wouldn't be interesting or fun to play against.


jump backJump back to quoted post23 Jul 2020, 23:00 PMKatitof
Well then, let me share a history knowledge with you:
A whole fucking lot of soviet partisans were whole encircled battalions and armies who hid in civilian population, trained willing civilians and coordinated actions with HQ when communication was possible.
Many of them were civilians indeed, but many of them were full trained soldiers in plain clothes.

That's pretty much what I based my Irregulars on, the veteran soldiers hiding among the civilian population and waiting for the front to catch up with them once again.
24 Jul 2020, 06:27 AM
#16
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2691 | Subs: 1

I think Partisan tactics are fine as they are now. Radio intercept is super valuable against Ostheers popular assault gren opening who just lol-sprint and win every squad on squad engagement in the early game if you don't know they are coming, and you don't have shock troops to even the odds later on.
Mark target is also very valuable since your heaviest tank is a low-end medium tank.
The doctrine has a perfect mix of manpower and munitions abilities where you can't spam abilities but you also won't float munitions in the lategame.
24 Jul 2020, 06:37 AM
#17
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 556

I don't like the idea of doctrine having 4 diffirent call ins
24 Jul 2020, 07:20 AM
#18
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1172

What about stolen panther ?


...In the first days of the Warsaw Uprising, the AK troops captured two Panther tanks, restored combat efficiency and entered service. A panther named "Magda", supported by units of the "Zośka" assault battalion, on August 5, 1944 captured and liberated 348 Jewish prisoners of the concentration camp at Gęsia street.. (Google translate)

https://images.app.goo.gl/WAz8tDgmd2fshL2n9
24 Jul 2020, 08:13 AM
#19
avatar of Osinyagov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 1361

What about stolen panther ?


...In the first days of the Warsaw Uprising, the AK troops captured two Panther tanks, restored combat efficiency and entered service. A panther named "Magda", supported by units of the "Zośka" assault battalion, on August 5, 1944 captured and liberated 348 Jewish prisoners of the concentration camp at Gęsia street.. (Google translate)

https://images.app.goo.gl/WAz8tDgmd2fshL2n9


I like it, but it’s not historically correct. AK and Red Army were not allies. Moreover, Red Army didn’t participate in Warsaw Uprising and didn’t help at all iirc
24 Jul 2020, 10:30 AM
#20
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1172



I like it, but it’s not historically correct. AK and Red Army were not allies. Moreover, Red Army didn’t participate in Warsaw Uprising and didn’t help at all iirc

Yes that's true, this is just an example that partisants doesn't have to be only infantry
Even stolen kubel would be nice
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