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Why Soviets are OP

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26 Sep 2020, 02:40 AM
#181
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

My concept for Soviet Assault Troops, a new stock unit available at base once T1 or T2 has been constructed. As this is conceptual the requirements are far from set in stone, but Assault Grenadiers and Assault Sections are available at minute zero, so it should be fine.

Goal here is to fill in a perceived gap in the faction: if Conscripts are only meant for utility and thus do not get weapons, and you do not go for Shocks or Guards, then all they have to support are Penals or Maxims. Conscripts and Penals alike struggle against Gren LMG 42's and Volk StG's, and the Maxim is a weird one because the implication is that Maxims should be used in larger numbers as a frontline unit which has been heavily discouraged by Relic (the dreaded Maxim spam).

It is this shortcoming that leaves the Soviets banking on the T-70 as a make-it-or-break-it unit mid-game, in fact you could say that the T-70 is Soviet mid-game. If that is to ever change, and Conscripts are conceptually prohibited from having their own weapon upgrade, then Soviets will need something else to work with.

A further conceptual fault with the Soviet Faction is that of all 5 factions, they ironically have one of the lowest numbers of SMG's or units with SMG's. This actually was not an issue in the campaign, which granted you SMG Conscripts (often free iirc) on most levels. So I would like to see that rectified.

That is why I believe Soviets would be well served by a new unit. This unit could be given PPSh's that are slightly weaker than Conscript PPSh's, so that they do not make Assault Grenadiers irrelevant. Maybe at T4 they could be given Conscript PPSh's or even Shock Troop PPSh's so they stay relevant into the late game.

Live concept art courtesy of Cheat Mod.

26 Sep 2020, 03:07 AM
#182
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 647

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2020, 18:15 PMSully

It's mind boggling to me how Soviets have gotten a free pass to have blatantly OP units/abilities over the years while all other factions have swung wildly between UP and OP.


This is basically what I was getting at. T70 has been op for the entire lifespan of coh2 and everyone just accepts it.
26 Sep 2020, 03:17 AM
#183
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 766 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2020, 19:17 PMEsxile
OKW and Soviet suffer the same issue

They are not.
OKW suffers MOSTLY from bad tech tree, lack of early game snares without commander, over-dependace on SP and keeping them alive and constant muni starvation for all crucial things needed.
Also over-all meh Volks perfomance when upgraded\vet inf hit the field, while being slightly cheaper, but almost always out-classed by IS\Rifles. They are good with vet 5, but if you lose your higtly vet squad it would be almost imposible to vet new one past mid game.

Soviets suffer from their whole mid game powerspike being concentrated in 1 unit, while cons in general gain nothing untill T4, meaning that compare to otherfactions, your midgame inf play is a bit lackluster, forcing them to rely on mines\flames\T70\elites\commander abilities.

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2020, 19:17 PMEsxile

Even Brit are on a similar situation, Tommies are good because they lack an LV to fight infantry. Nerfing them not only weaken the faction at a time being during the game but for all the game because they're too important. USF suffered the issue with RMs until they revamped the faction.


Tommies are good because faction has been balanced into second USF. UKF have all the tools needed early on (aside from counter-sniping) to provide very strong and prominent combined arms force. You have access to MG, you have acces to Universal carrier which can support and help you flank with decent damage. But all this went to poo-poo. Combined arms was turned into 4 IS into fast T2 into bolster into AEC.
26 Sep 2020, 03:22 AM
#184
avatar of FelixTHM

Posts: 447 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2020, 18:23 PMgbem


maybe thats because the soviets are performing poorly based on automatch stats... and are highly reliant on a single OP unit (or a certain commander) to carry their nonexistent midgame infantry play



That would be a legitimate argument only if top tier elite infantry weren't readily available in all the best Soviet doctrines already. The only two good doctrines which don't (Defensive doc and Armoured Assault) have insane bonuses to make up for it.

Armoured assault gives you virtually nothing early on in exchange for late game insanity with IL2 and IS2 tag team. Defensive Doc gives you dshka and M42, which are a different approach to strengthening the Soviet early-mid game.

People keep dishonestly harping on about "non-doc" elites as if it were actually an issue for Soviets. It's not a tradeoff when the top 5 doctrines all include elite infantry, and 8 of the top 10 do.
26 Sep 2020, 05:49 AM
#185
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351

Can everybody please stop quoting automatch win/loss stats as a proof that a faction is up? Just read how these are/were created and cut the nonsense.
26 Sep 2020, 06:47 AM
#186
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12209 | Subs: 1

My concept for Soviet Assault Troops,...

It has been my suggestion for a long time that this role goes to Penals.

So ones get different types of stock Soviet infatry. Penals a cheap offensive infatry with PPsh, ourah, molotov... and a defensive one with conscripts that have sandbag, normal grenades and hit the dirt instead of ourah.

One could even take it further by giving Penal the "redeem in blood" ability once a certain vet level has been achieved that would allow them to upgrade (or even be "refitted" for a soviet elite infatry).
26 Sep 2020, 07:17 AM
#187
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 06:47 AMVipper

It has been my suggestion for a long time that this role goes to Penals.

So ones get different types of stock Soviet infatry. Penals a cheap offensive infatry with PPsh, ourah, molotov... and a defensive one with conscripts that have sandbag, normal grenades and hit the dirt instead of ourah.

One could even take it further by giving Penal the "redeem in blood" ability once a certain vet level has been achieved that would allow them to upgrade (or even be "refitted" for a soviet elite infatry).


Penal Troops cannot be compared to Assault Grenadiers, Assault Sections, etc. Their closest point of comparison would be OH Grenadiers whom they beat only by virtue of squad size, or US Riflemen whom they're inferior to. Penals are unique in that rather than gaining an AI focused upgrade, they sidegrade to light anti-tank in order to protect against 222 and Luches until the T-70 arrives.

The idea here is that instead of an upgrade for their mainline, Soviets will have an alternative and aggressive main available to them, similar to Assault Grenadier centric strategies. I think you do have a valid point about Penals with PPSh potentially being made redundant, but hopefully Penal's having the Shock Troop PPSh would make them desirable over the weaker unit I described.
26 Sep 2020, 07:28 AM
#188
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 185 | Subs: 2

My concept for Soviet Assault Troops, a new stock unit available at base once T1 or T2 has been constructed. As this is conceptual the requirements are far from set in stone, but Assault Grenadiers and Assault Sections are available at minute zero, so it should be fine.

Goal here is to fill in a perceived gap in the faction: if Conscripts are only meant for utility and thus do not get weapons, and you do not go for Shocks or Guards, then all they have to support are Penals or Maxims. Conscripts and Penals alike struggle against Gren LMG 42's and Volk StG's, and the Maxim is a weird one because the implication is that Maxims should be used in larger numbers as a frontline unit which has been heavily discouraged by Relic (the dreaded Maxim spam).

It is this shortcoming that leaves the Soviets banking on the T-70 as a make-it-or-break-it unit mid-game, in fact you could say that the T-70 is Soviet mid-game. If that is to ever change, and Conscripts are conceptually prohibited from having their own weapon upgrade, then Soviets will need something else to work with.

A further conceptual fault with the Soviet Faction is that of all 5 factions, they ironically have one of the lowest numbers of SMG's or units with SMG's. This actually was not an issue in the campaign, which granted you SMG Conscripts (often free iirc) on most levels. So I would like to see that rectified.

That is why I believe Soviets would be well served by a new unit. This unit could be given PPSh's that are slightly weaker than Conscript PPSh's, so that they do not make Assault Grenadiers irrelevant. Maybe at T4 they could be given Conscript PPSh's or even Shock Troop PPSh's so they stay relevant into the late game.

Live concept art courtesy of Cheat Mod.


Why not just allow the Penals to upgrade with 6x PPSH when you have the PPSH upgrade ability in your commander (there is a fair few of them). In soviet airborne they work as well but there they are overshadowed by SVT Cons.
26 Sep 2020, 07:42 AM
#189
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12209 | Subs: 1




My suggestion comes from the fact that Soviet has a plethora of infatry so some of these units need to have different play styles. So in my suggestion Penal are the cheap offensive infatry and conscripts are the defensive infatry.
26 Sep 2020, 08:00 AM
#190
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Why not just allow the Penals to upgrade with 6x PPSH when you have the PPSH upgrade ability in your commander (there is a fair few of them). In soviet airborne they work as well but there they are overshadowed by SVT Cons.
jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 07:42 AMVipper
My suggestion comes from the fact that Soviet has a plethora of infatry so some of these units need to have different play styles. So in my suggestion Penal are the cheap offensive infatry and conscripts are the defensive infatry.


Personally, the portrayal of the Red Army being a force comprised mostly of Conscripts and Convicts never felt right to be, it feels strange and possibly even a bit insulting. I'd like to see units that are not Conscripts or Convicts available to them as a regular part of their forces.

As for allowing Penals the upgrade if you have the PPSh upgrade in your Commander, well what if you don't have a Commander with it? You're stuck with regular Penals. Not to mention PPSh's are 2CP, by which point the PTRS sidegrade is more desirable because 222/251 Flammen/Luches will be hitting the field, and you've still got a bit to go until T-70.

And Vipper, Penals are not all that cheap or cost effective as offensive infantry, they cost slightly more than US Riflemen but perform slightly worse and cannot be given BAR's. Plus while Grenadiers and Volksgrenadiers bolster their anti-infantry firepower, Penals reduce theirs for AT Rifles to help you hold off until T-70. Back in the day when Penals got 2 Flamethrowers your statement would make perfect sense, but those days are long gone.

If the T-70 is to be reduced in strength, then Soviets will need something to bridge the gap during mid-game if you haven't selected Shock Troops/Guards/PPSh Cons. Many years ago Soviets were designed to rely entirely on doctrines early on and even now the current design reflects this, but that's a poor design and the last vestiges of it need to be brushed away.
26 Sep 2020, 08:12 AM
#191
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 185 | Subs: 2



Personally, the portrayal of the Red Army being a force comprised mostly of Conscripts and Convicts never felt right to be, it feels strange and possibly even a bit insulting. I'd like to see units that are not Conscripts or Convicts available to them as a regular part of their forces.

As for allowing Penals the upgrade if you have the PPSh upgrade in your Commander, well what if you don't have a Commander with it? You're stuck with regular Penals. Not to mention PPSh's are 2CP, by which point the PTRS sidegrade is more desirable because 222/251 Flammen/Luches will be hitting the field, and you've still got a bit to go until T-70.


I agree with that first part but its how relic designed the faction + voicelines so there is not much that can be done about it. I'd much rather they had gone with strelki and atvomachiki as frontliners and leave the penal as a call shock type unit. But id also like to have a million dollars and a pony that can fly to the moon

Considering the amount of commanders with PPSH i think its a decent way to solve this problem. The PPSH commanders bring lots of different abilities so you can get a bit of everything. Do not forget that PPSH Penals that have ''too the last man'' activated can do considerable amounts of damage.
You can give some Penals PTRS and some PPSH in this concept so you can still deal with halftracks, no reason to not mix and match in your line up. For example in a 3 penals opening you can have 1x PPSH Penal 1x PTRS penal and 1x normal Penal, now you have different bases covered.


I would like to add that it does need a smoke grenade in this package or urrah like vipper said.

26 Sep 2020, 08:14 AM
#192
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17541 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 03:07 AMGiaA


This is basically what I was getting at. T70 has been op for the entire lifespan of coh2 and everyone just accepts it.

Yes.
Because, for the 100000th time in CoH2 lifespan, non doctrinal infantry mid game does not exist for soviets and without this crutch, upgraded inf roflstomps them now only in mid game, previously in end game as well, because nothing except maxims was capable of holding its on in mid and late game in regards to stock infantry.
26 Sep 2020, 08:21 AM
#193
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 647

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 08:14 AMKatitof

Yes.
Because, for the 100000th time in CoH2 lifespan, non doctrinal infantry mid game does not exist for soviets and without this crutch, upgraded inf roflstomps them now only in mid game, previously in end game as well, because nothing except maxims was capable of holding its on in mid and late game in regards to stock infantry.


The whole "T70 carries soviets" meme only applies to Osttruppen anyways. Doctrine abilities exist. They are part of the game. You can't balance around a doctrineless game.
26 Sep 2020, 08:57 AM
#194
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3252 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 08:21 AMGiaA


The whole "T70 carries soviets" meme only applies to Osttruppen anyways. Doctrine abilities exist. They are part of the game. You can't balance around a doctrineless game.


That's basically from where we come from because it was a disaster. Doctrines should add flavor not fill gaps.

The problem with your topic is that you're offering zero solution. You're just yelling "WATER'S WET" on all your responses.
There is no need for rocket science's degree to understand and acknowledge the T70 is too good. BUT it requires much more than such topic and yelling to find a balanced solution for the Soviet faction as a whole with all the constraints imposed by the game and Relic.
26 Sep 2020, 09:07 AM
#195
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12209 | Subs: 1


...
And Vipper, Penals are not all that cheap or cost effective as offensive infantry,...

May suggestion is to greatly reduce Penal's cost...
Although (an older) suggestion:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/61269/redesign-penal-battalions

feel free to PM if you want to further debate the issue.


Personally, the portrayal of the Red Army being a force comprised mostly of Conscripts and Convicts never felt right to be, it feels strange and possibly even a bit insulting. I'd like to see units that are not Conscripts or Convicts available to them as a regular part of their forces.

Imo Relic attempted to portrait the early Soviet army that disorganized during purges that had trouble even fighting vs the Finns.

Penal were mostly not "convicts" of the criminal of the civilian law but ranged from dissidents to soldiered that had retreated.

So I do not really understand why some people are insulted.
26 Sep 2020, 09:22 AM
#196
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17541 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 08:21 AMGiaA


The whole "T70 carries soviets" meme only applies to Osttruppen anyways. Doctrine abilities exist. They are part of the game. You can't balance around a doctrineless game.

Do you have some filter on that erases "non doctrinal" and "stock" words from the posts you read?
Were you asleep for last 4 years, where community modders did everything in their power to make faction NON DEPENDENT ON DOCTRINES?

Unless you want to have 7th con unlocked at T3 instead of T4, T-70 will remain unchanged, because it can't be changed without equally large boost to infantry in that time period.
26 Sep 2020, 09:37 AM
#197
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5249

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 08:21 AMGiaA


The whole "T70 carries soviets" meme only applies to Osttruppen anyways. Doctrine abilities exist. They are part of the game. You can't balance around a doctrineless game.

You absolutely can and should balance primarily around a doctrine less game because doctrines are extras. You certainly can't balance well when you have 100*different variables and combinations to take into account with the primary balance if the core is balanced then you can isolate problem ubits/abilities and change them without nuking the faction.

Look at the old spec ops with the call in cpanther. They were afraid to nerf the Panther because the faction would fall apart. Fuck the other 5 commanders right? Remove commanders from play and see what the factions need to be viable without then and it doesn't matter what you do to the commanders as the faction is still usable.
26 Sep 2020, 09:50 AM
#198
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12209 | Subs: 1


You absolutely can and should balance primarily around a doctrine less game because doctrines are extras. You certainly can't balance well when you have 100*different variables and combinations to take into account with the primary balance if the core is balanced then you can isolate problem ubits/abilities and change them without nuking the faction.

Look at the old spec ops with the call in cpanther. They were afraid to nerf the Panther because the faction would fall apart. Fuck the other 5 commanders right? Remove commanders from play and see what the factions need to be viable without then and it doesn't matter what you do to the commanders as the faction is still usable.

If one want to redesign Soviet without commanders one has to actually bring Soviet commander inline with other factions and removed and tone down most doctrinal units.

Currently Soviet have a plethora of doctrinal units and many of them are above the doctrinal units of other factions.
26 Sep 2020, 10:18 AM
#199
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 365

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 09:50 AMVipper

If one want to redesign Soviet without commanders one has to actually bring Soviet commander inline with other factions and removed and tone down most doctrinal units.


I disagree to an extent.

I think that soviet commander abilities need to be more evenly spread (and maybe replace) out across commanders as most are fine just too many in a commander making it too potent.

26 Sep 2020, 10:25 AM
#200
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17541 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 09:50 AMVipper

If one want to redesign Soviet without commanders one has to actually bring Soviet commander inline with other factions and removed and tone down most doctrinal units.

Ost didn't had PaK43 or Ele neutered once T4 and panther was buffed.
250 wasn't nerfed when PGs were buffed, in fact it was buffed as well.

Your logic makes no sense and doesn't line with reality of changes made to all 5 factions, who had both, core armies and multiple doctrines and doctrinal units brought up in line without castrating completely already existing meta units, while dominating meta units were adjusted to be just another option to consider, not the only, exclusive option to pick if you want to win a leveled game.

Your personal agenda was proven to be incorrect approach with each and every single patch across almost half a decade now as there was never before in coh2 lifespan a place with balance as good and meta as varied as it is nowadays and lack of dominating doctrines for all the factions(minus clearly batshit insane ost infantry doctrine 5 man grens and overperforming osttruppen but for non doctrinal reasons) as well as win ratios across the board being closest ever is a testament to the changes leading the game into balanced state.

Currently Soviet have a plethora of doctrinal units and many of them are above the doctrinal units of other factions.

You are fully entitled to that personal opinion of yours.
It does not make it a fact tho.
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