WBP Merged changelog (v1.0 to newest)

No, I clearly said that it is not a nerf/buff. Don't make me say things I didn't say. I sent you a PM to explain you that for you to understand.

No, I clearly said that it is not a nerf/buff. Don't make me say things I didn't say. I sent you a PM to explain you that for you to understand.

I will not read it.

Does Piat work better vs mediums and worse against super/heavies?

So in your opinion are Piats buffed in WBP or are they nerfed?

The way I use PIATs, which is incidentally the same way that Captain Price uses them, PIATs have been heavily nerfed to a balanced state. 1 PIAT in the live version is considerably stronger than 1 panzerschreck.

Your main argument is:
- The only way to find out what is the state of balance is high level play
- The only such available 1v1 top-level play is KoTH (OK so far)

If its only KoTH results that matter (which is your main argument), and KoTH results were OK, we wouldn't have to change anything with respect to PIATs (and Brits). Am I right?

However, why should we change PIATs at all, since they had 0 effect on the results of the tourney. it makes no sense to me to throw 3 months of testing down the toilet. This is because, in my head, there is a very clear logical disconnect between:
- PIAT changes
- the KoTH tournament

We acknowledge that Brits are overperforming in the KoTH tournament. This is 99% because of two very specific doctrines that go above and beyond in the lategame.

If we make adjustments that are completely disconnected from our main objectives (diversity & balance), we're only going to shoot ourselves in the foot. What happens when Comet/etc enter scope? Do we wait another X months until PIATs re-enter scope? What happens in between? What if the survey format prevents the community from choosing actionable items?

Do we really want to stay forever in the days of the good-ol-ESL when there was literally at most 1 viable strategy per faction?

So they in other words since the disparity has lessen they are buffed in early game and nerfed in late game.

And since the KOTH has demonstrated that UKF are OP in late game the change is an overall buff to the UKF faction because it buff their early mid game where they suffer.

I never claimed that it was bad change, my point is that it is bad timing. UKF need to redesigned/overhauled as faction and then change the Piats. Piat change at this point will probably cause more issues than it will solve.

More like buff for bad players and nerfed for good players. Usage potential has been brought down.

If you weren't using PIATS before cause you didn't know about attack ground: it's a buff.
If you were using PIATS before, by using attack ground to kill OKW buildings, emplacements and pinpoint hitting vehicles with high deflection damage: it's a nerf.

Reminder that this are the changes:

Gave PIAT homing projectile, if there is no obstruction between the PIAT and the target
PIATs have the same accuracy as bazookas for ranges between 0 and 30
Adjusted scatter offset, so that misses are centered around an immobile target
Range reduced from 45 to 30
Damage reduced from 120/80 (penetrating hit/deflected hit) to 100/25
Munitions cost increased from 40 to 50
Fire-aim time reduced from 2.4 to 0.625 (reduces delay to fire)
Increased reload time to match that of the Bazooka
Reduced scatter, so that PIATs in indirect-fire mode are unreliable (especially when the user is suppressed)
Post_firing_aim_time increased from 0 to 1.25
Cooldown time decreased from 1.25 to 0
Reload time increased from 4.5 to 5.75

I'm mostly only seeing nerfs. If i had to choose from having a bazooka with less range on a mostly non mobile snare faction or old PIATS, i'll keep old PIATS.

Thanks for the hardwork guys, the future patch makes me want to play 1v1's again . Now for the extension of the scope and the balancing of the late game vehicles...

The way I use PIATs, which is incidentally the same way that Captain Price uses them, PIATs have been heavily nerfed to a balanced state. 1 PIAT in the live version is considerably stronger than 1 panzerschreck.

Your main argument is:
- The only way to find out what is the state of balance is high level play
- The only such available 1v1 top-level play is KoTH (OK so far)

If its only KoTH results that matter (which is your main argument), and KoTH results were OK, we wouldn't have to change anything with respect to PIATs (and Brits). Am I right?

Well I don't really agree that the only way to find the state of balance is high level play. Koth gives good indication and that about it.

However, why should we change PIATs at all, since they had 0 effect on the results of the tourney. it makes no sense to me to throw 3 months of testing down the toilet. This is because, in my head, there is a very clear logical disconnect between:
- PIAT changes
- the KoTH tournament

Since Piat where not used in Koth tournament (or not extensively)one can not evaluate their impact from data in there.

We acknowledge that Brits are overperforming in the KoTH tournament. This is 99% because of two very specific doctrines that go above and beyond in the lategame.

If we make adjustments that are completely disconnected from our main objectives (diversity & balance), we're only going to shoot ourselves in the foot. What happens when Comet/etc enter scope? Do we wait another X months until PIATs re-enter scope? What happens in between? What if the survey format prevents the community from choosing actionable items?

Do we really want to stay forever in the days of the good-ol-ESL when there was literally at most 1 viable strategy per faction?

Imo you probably need more data on the performance of Piats before going ahead with change. My point here is that imo the change at this point will cause more problem than it will solve. I might be wrong but that can only be verified from more testing.

And the question should be what if you now end up with UKF dominance for the next 6 months (and if the Piat change contributes to that)?

Since Piat where not used in Koth tournament (or not extensively)one can not evaluate their impact from data in there.

Imo you probably need more data on the performance of Piats before going ahead with change. My point here is that imo the change at this point will cause more problem than it will solve. I might be wrong but that can only be verified from more testing.

After 3 months of testing and adjusting PIATs, I am not aware of a single issue that has risen up, where PIATs have caused, or threatened to cause an issue.

I am aware you are going to say "But M5 conscripts". Well guess what; M5 conscripts are even more powerful in the live version. This is just something that people don't know how to abuse. The issue with vickers-k/PIAT drops will be trivially solved when slot item performance becomes normalized to the squad that picks them up.

If PIAT changes will be the accelerator that speeds up the process of correcting this consistency error, then so be it.

If fixing light-vehicle abuse-meta makes it so that OP commanders become painfully obvious and then fixed, then so be it.

If adjusting allied infantry to OST infantry standards and Panzerfussilier blobs, with their outlier stats start drowning everything, so be it.

In the next patch, the community will pick those items up, and those items will be addressed. The end result is a game that converges to a more playable state faster.

Relic gives us a very tiny window of what we are allowed to touch, and I think we should reap that ability to the maximum. With those changes, we consider early-game strategic choices actually meaningful now, and the early game kinda more balanced as a result. Late-game has always been, and will always be problematic when the game insists on harbouring factions that outscale other factions, by design.

On the other hand, I am extremely painfully aware:
- That regardless of PIATs, UKF will have an easier game (mainly due to light vehicle nerfs and sniper kill-ability)
- live-version PIATs are insanely, extremely OP in the late-game. UKF needs no help in the late-game

If 3 months of testing in a well-advertised mod is not enough, then how many months of testing should we, objectively, aim for? Ideally for future patches, we should be aiming for a shorter testing phase, not a longer one.

What's the issue with M5 conscripts and PIAT drops?

What's the issue with M5 conscripts and PIAT drops?

It's the fact that Soviet infantry get easy access to foreign weapon drops. This would normally not be an issue, except for the fact that conscripts receive insanely-high bonuses with veterancy to make up for crappy Mosins and lack of upgrades.

Unfortunately, it is exactly those bonuses (e.g., insane durability) that only matter when transferring to other weapons. Couple that with a squad that can sprint and you can have fun times.

The quick-and-dirty solution is instituting some flat penalties/bonuses to picked up weapons according to the power of the native weapon. E.g., if PIAT Conscripts are meant to be durable as fuck, they should at least also be crappy at shooting the guns (e.g., worse accuracy/reload/penetration).

Interesting.
I never came across that problem in my countless games. This is mostly due to limiting UKF limiting themselves to a specific (shitty) commander, and that UKF still have to pay for these drops. SOV will have to get shitty conscripts to make that work. All of that is just a receipt for failure for a small advantage.

I have never seen that in any WBP replays or tournament matches. That tactic is like shooting in your own leg in hopes your teammate wins the game. Or are there any replays??

After 3 months of testing and adjusting PIATs, I am not aware of a single issue that has risen up, where PIATs have caused, or threatened to cause an issue.
...

Lets hope that someone chooses to spam some Piats in the WBP so we can have a better evaluation.

After 3 months of testing and adjusting PIATs, I am not aware of a single issue that has risen up, where PIATs have caused, or threatened to cause an issue.

Lets hope that someone chooses to spam some Piats in the WBP so we can have a better evaluation.

What about you go ahead Vipper and you show us some examples of you do this kind of tactic in WBP instead of wild groundless theory-crafting? You would provide far more input to this balance issue than lengthy block of texts. Nobody has done it so far in the three months of WBP testing, and nobody at high play in tournaments has done it. There are to my knowledge no threads about it, no replays, even Mr.Smith says there's no problem. It's a non existing problem that simply does not occur!

There are to my knowledge no threads about it, no replays, even Mr.Smith says there's no problem. It's a non existing problem that simply does not occur!

I don't know if WBP will really cause a problem. I do know that I've never experience an issue with PIATs while playing with WBP. Also nobody else has yet to make such a claim ever since we addressed the reload speed of PIATs.

However, I do know that we are getting conflicting reports on just about any change we've made. Thus, to change something we need to know what kind of information to trust, and that needs evidence. A forum post is not evidence.

From my point of view, I do know that live-version PIATs cause massive imbalance if the person that uses them actually know what they are doing. Just watch just about any CaptainSPrice UKF game ever and that will be enough to convince you. PIATs are beyond broken in the live-version.

Given that UKF can make it reliably to their late-game, however, it is beyond absurd to revert to live-version PIATs and restore them back to UKF's late-game toolbox.

Modhat: invis some posts. You've already been told to solve this kind of discussions through PM.

Question: What is the point of PIAT accuracy when they have a homing projectile?

Doesn't a homing projectile sort of remove range and accuracy from the equation?

I haven't WBP for a bit and never saw Brits in any WBP I've played thus far.

Question: What is the point of PIAT accuracy when they have a homing projectile?

Doesn't a homing projectile sort of remove range and accuracy from the equation?

I haven't WBP for a bit and never saw Brits in any WBP I've played thus far.

You mean scatter? Accuracy is necessary for homing projectile, since the accuracy roll determines whether the projectile will home in, or fire a scatter shot.

Scatter nerf was necessary so that suppressed PIAT squads do not retain pinpoint accuracy, and that missed PIAT shots have comparable accuracy to missed bazooka/schreck shots.