WBP Merged changelog (v1.0 to newest)

Firstly, a thank you for all the work put into balancing and bug fixing the game. A hard and often thankless task.

A couple of quick questions, apologies if they have been answered / dealt with before, been out of touch with CoH2 for a long time:

- Has the massive (especially late game) repair speed disparity between EFA and WFA been fixed as highlighted here by elchino7 (half way down). https://www.coh2.org/topic/53256/repair-speed-tweaks/page/3

- Has the bugged queued movement commands for vehicles been fixed so they work again reliably (no idea when they broke, definitely don't work properly in current live version)?

Yes. They will spam Maxims even more. Not sure if WBP team kept that in mind when nerfing Penals. I find playing against Penals with the odd M3 car or sniper better than playing against a Maxim spam.

I don´t know why Penals are considered OP anyways. Yes they are strong against infantry but they have to be because they are a 300 MP 60 Ammo unit with no AT capability. Going T1 as Soviets is such a risk because of the obvious lack of AT that Penals need to be good just to offer any reward for going T1. Especially against a OKW player that gets a quick Luchs I find T2 much stronger. Guard Rifles can´t effectivly fight a supported Luchs and until T-70 gets out the OKW player takes over the whole map.

When playing against Soviets as OKW I´m always glad if my Opponent goes T1 because I know I just have to hold on a bit until I get Luchs and he can´t counter.

Penals in and of themselves aren't really OP. The problem was how they were timed with Guards. The PTRS on Guards made it so Ostheer especially couldn't even have a chance to have an edge until way too late in the game.

The unit wasn't so much OP as with how they were timed with Guards to allow for Soviets to dominate both the early and midgame, and possibly beyond when you consider the T70.

Penals in and of themselves aren't really OP. The problem was how they were timed with Guards. The PTRS on Guards made it so Ostheer especially couldn't even have a chance to have an edge until way too late in the game.
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They actually are the are an elite infantry that arrives before minute. They are more durable and have more DPS than riflemen who are op themselves by design (and should be toned down not that they have a mortar available)

As was clearly demonstrate by Shocks and Guards at CP 1 elite infantry need to be delayed (or be available to all factions).

I should have asked sooner but, what does that bug fix mean for Paratroopers? More manpower per minute and chance for a bigger army?

The individual models are worth less popcap, the actual squad should also be worth slightly less.

The individual models are worth less popcap, the actual squad should also be worth slightly less.

So more manpower?

Penals in and of themselves aren't really OP. The problem was how they were timed with Guards. The PTRS on Guards made it so Ostheer especially couldn't even have a chance to have an edge until way too late in the game.

The unit wasn't so much OP as with how they were timed with Guards to allow for Soviets to dominate both the early and midgame, and possibly beyond when you consider the T70.

They totally deny garrison / cover play with flamethrower

- Has the massive (especially late game) repair speed disparity between EFA and WFA been fixed as highlighted here by elchino7 (half way down). https://www.coh2.org/topic/53256/repair-speed-tweaks/page/3

Out of scope, unfortunately. Nevertheless:
- USF had somewhat of a nerf since it now actually takes some time for Vehicle Crews to reach Vet2 (which improves their repair speed)
- With their DPS buff, OST Pioneers could, theoretically, achieve the required veterancy level without having to carry a flamethrower
- With the handheld-AT veterancy-rate fix, Sappers/Rear-Echelons/Sturmpioneers will not have such an easy time jumping through vet

- Has the bugged queued movement commands for vehicles been fixed so they work again reliably (no idea when they broke, definitely don't work properly in current live version)?

I'm aware of the bug. However, I'm not aware about when/whether those queued commands ever worked properly. If you can narrow down roughly when this change occured (e.g., winter of 2014), we can maybe talk things with Relic to see if stuff can get reverted. I haven't looked into this, but it doesn't sound like the kind of stuff we can fix with a mod.

So more manpower?

A Paratroper squad both in the live version and in WBP cost 9 popcap. In the live version, this popcap was assigned to 1.5 popcap per model and 0 for the squad (6 * 1.5 + 0). In WBP this is 1 popcap per model and 3 per squad (6 * 1 + 3 = 9).

The difference that this change makes is what happens when you recrew teamweapons with paratroopers (which you most likely will for the Recon doctrine). With the change, recrewing an MG42 with a paratrooper squad will cost you 6 popcap as opposed to 8 popcap.

In a future patch, we will probably afford the same change to all other squads in the game, so that you don't have silly stuff such as AT-partisan recrewed Pak40's being worth 17 popcap.

With paratroopers it was straight forward, since they had non-integral popcap per model, and Relic was convinced that non-integral popcap was breaking call-ins in certain cases.

A Paratroper squad both in the live version and in WBP cost 9 popcap. In the live version, this popcap was assigned to 1.5 popcap per model and 0 for the squad (6 * 1.5 + 0). In WBP this is 1 popcap per model and 3 per squad (6 * 1 + 3 = 9).

The difference that this change makes is what happens when you recrew teamweapons with paratroopers (which you most likely will for the Recon doctrine). With the change, recrewing an MG42 with a paratrooper squad will cost you 6 popcap as opposed to 8 popcap.

In a future patch, we will probably afford the same change to all other squads in the game, so that you don't have silly stuff such as AT-partisan recrewed Pak40's being worth 17 popcap.

With paratroopers it was straight forward, since they had non-integral popcap per model, and Relic was convinced that non-integral popcap was breaking call-ins in certain cases.

So this helps the doctrine when you recrew those dropped MGs or ATGs as well as anything else you might steal?
GOOD!

Out of scope, unfortunately. Nevertheless:
- USF had somewhat of a nerf since it now actually takes some time for Vehicle Crews to reach Vet2 (which improves their repair speed)
- With their DPS buff, OST Pioneers could, theoretically, achieve the required veterancy level without having to carry a flamethrower
- With the handheld-AT veterancy-rate fix, Sappers/Rear-Echelons/Sturmpioneers will not have such an easy time jumping through vet

I'm aware of the bug. However, I'm not aware about when/whether those queued commands ever worked properly. If you can narrow down roughly when this change occured (e.g., winter of 2014), we can maybe talk things with Relic to see if stuff can get reverted. I haven't looked into this, but it doesn't sound like the kind of stuff we can fix with a mod.

Thanks for the information.

Love the theoretical part, assuming your using the definition of it not being particularly practical in a real game environment.

Gotta love scope huh. I don't envy anyone trying to balance the game when a lot of the core balance issues which have a myriad of foreseen and unforeseen knock on effects can't be fixed (of which I think repair speed is one, of many sadly). Bit like trying to build a house of cards on a wobbly three legged table while blindfolded hopping on one leg!

Sorry, can't remember when queued commands worked, and to be honest due to a fuzzy memory I can't be 100% sure that it ever did fully in CoH2 without any issues (seems really bad now though). Definitely worked well in vCoH/OF/ToV.

They actually are the are an elite infantry that arrives before minute. They are more durable and have more DPS than riflemen who are op themselves by design (and should be toned down not that they have a mortar available)

As was clearly demonstrate by Shocks and Guards at CP 1 elite infantry need to be delayed (or be available to all factions).

Sorta. There is no functional component of the game that differentiates entities or squads as 'elite'. As in, there isn't something like in vCoH where there's different levels of soldier/elite armor.

That being said CoH2 does have some kinda of delineation between squads. I find this to be a very blurry line though. The variables to gauge are a bit too complex for units to just be 'elite' or not. Is it squad durability? Versatility? Damage output? Kinds of, or options for, damage output?

I mean, Obers are obviously designed to be 'elite' soldiers, but they lack AT and sport 80 health an entity. Riflemen on the other hand I wouldn't call 'elite' soldiers but they certainly are versatile, durable, and capable of extensive damage output. Paratroopers and Rangers I would consider 'elite' but they mostly just bring strong SMGs to the table for USF. Grenadiers I don't think anyone would consider 'elite' but they are probably the most capable infantry unit in the game except for their squad size/spread and allied powercreep.

And Penals...

They totally deny garrison / cover play with flamethrower

Ding Ding Ding.

The Penal Battalion unit itself isn't broken, but having a large infantry unit able to get flamethrowers causes a problem for the way flamethrowers work. And I don't just mean over cover mechanics.

Unlike flamethrowers on engineers (and on 2 and 3 man squads in vcoh) there isn't a notable target for enemy forces to focus fire. The flamethrower can't be singled out, which highly impacts how important micro is in the engagement for the worse.

I mean, players may often note their riflemen or volks squad that picks up a dropped flamethrower gets focus fired pretty readily. There's a reason for that: it's a major threat.

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Since the KOTH indicates that UKF are very strong my suggestion would be not to go ahead with the Piat changes until UKF receive some nerfs.

Also sorry if this has been asked before:

Why do Schu-mines from OKW not surpress infantry like Soviet or UKF mines do (not sure about riflemen mines either)?

Since the KOTH indicates that UKF are very strong my suggestion would be not to go ahead with the Piat changes until UKF receive some nerfs.

Unless I missed something, nobody even touched piats in the tourney. Piat changes are first, and foremnost a big lategame nerf. Also it doesn't make sense to linit atrategic diversity of a faction when it is clear that this is thr case if a few doctrines overperforming.

We shouodnt be balancing ukf around landmattress/arty cover. It shoulf be the other way around.

Why do Schu-mines from OKW not surpress infantry like Soviet or UKF mines do (not sure about riflemen mines either)?

This has been fixed to the extent that it's possible (teller-like early detonation).

Since the KOTH indicates that UKF are very strong my suggestion would be not to go ahead with the Piat changes until UKF receive some nerfs.

Nobody used the PIATs in the KOTH tournament. Your own logic could be applied to suggest that they underperform in WBP due to their lack of use in the tournament. I think KOTH will give a cleaner idea about balance with the next round that uses the modified rule set. The previous rule-set promoted British type turtling gameplay.

Unless I missed something, nobody even touched piats in the tourney. Piat changes are first, and foremnost a big lategame nerf. Also it doesn't make sense to linit atrategic diversity of a faction when it is clear that this is thr case if a few doctrines overperforming.

We shouodnt be balancing ukf around landmattress/arty cover. It shoulf be the other way around.

Piats in live are mostly counter to Supper heavy while WBP they are counters to all armor. That imo is buff to UKF and imo UKF do not need a buff until they are fixed.

Piats in live are mostly counter to Supper heavy while WBP they are counters to all armor. That imo is buff to UKF and imo UKF do not need a buff until they are fixed.

Good players in live are able to use Piats to counter even faster moving vehicles using ground attack. The change mostly removes the gap between this need for micro.

Good players in live are able to use Piats to counter even faster moving vehicles using ground attack. The change mostly removes the gap between this need for micro.

So in your opinion are Piats buffed in WBP or are they nerfed?

They were redesigned to remove the disparity in the early and late game AT capability between good and not-so-good players. They were not buffed, and not nerfed. They work great now, and feel less threatening against top100 players in WBP late game. Great redesign.

KOTH will have more diversity in the next round too, thanks to Storm's changed rules.

They were redesigned to remove the disparity in the early and late game AT capability between good and not-so-good players. They were not buffed, and not nerfed. They work great now, and feel less threatening against top100 players in WBP late game. Great redesign.

KOTH will have more diversity in the next round too, thanks to Storm's changed rules.

So they in other words since the disparity has lessen they are buffed in early game and nerfed in late game.

And since the KOTH has demonstrated that UKF are OP in late game the change is an overall buff to the UKF faction because it buff their early mid game where they suffer.

I never claimed that it was bad change, my point is that it is bad timing. UKF need to redesigned/overhauled as faction and then change the Piats. Piat change at this point will probably cause more issues than it will solve.