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russian armor

on the ptrs

17 Jul 2016, 09:48 AM
#41
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

....... They cost 330 ........


My bad. I was thinking about something else and writing something else.
17 Jul 2016, 10:56 AM
#42
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2





except the upgrade on the conscript do give them a different PTRS entity than the guards.

they used to give the same PTRS, but was made separate since it was too powerful on the conscript.


What Katikof said.
17 Jul 2016, 12:00 PM
#43
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

would changing the aim time and cooldown to decent time but making the damage to infantry to 12-14
and changing the button to turret lock/disable and slow the tank like right now be ok ?
17 Jul 2016, 12:01 PM
#44
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jul 2016, 07:25 AMUnited
Why are we making Guards better? Shock troops already see minimal play, we don't need to make Guards the 100% better call in.


Shocks just need to stop having a grenade that sucks. Shock troops grenade has the worst AoE in the game; for no reason.

Considering that their counterparts (Obers, PGrens, Falls, etc) have just gotten access to the god-grenade last patch, I would rather Shocks get access to, at least, a normal-damage nade.
17 Jul 2016, 12:08 PM
#45
avatar of pigsoup
Patrion 14

Posts: 4301 | Subs: 2



Shocks just need to stop having a grenade that sucks. Shock troops grenade has the worst AoE in the game; for no reason.

Considering that their counterparts (Obers, PGrens, Falls, etc) have just gotten access to the god-grenade last patch, I would rather Shocks get access to, at least, a normal-damage nade.


but it is one of those cooked grenade. like 1-sec fuse time. while others are more like 2.5? i think. i think it fits well.
17 Jul 2016, 21:37 PM
#46
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jul 2016, 07:25 AMUnited
Why are we making Guards better? Shock troops already see minimal play, we don't need to make Guards the 100% better call in.


shock troops with their smoke is still one of the best anti-mg infantry unit in the game.

their 1.5 armor also make the one of the toughest infantry squad in the game. It's got a six men squad with one of the highest defensive modifier in the game.




What Katikof said.


jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jul 2016, 09:46 AMKatitof

The reason it was too powerful in the first place was removed long time ago, it was 40 dmg on inf and it destroyed team weapons.

Con ptrs went on Relics traditional balance roller-coaster, from top, to the very bottom, because fuck small adjustments, huge revamps FTW, what can go wrong?


I will agree that the conscript PTRS got overnerfed with the separate weapon change and the damage change to the weapon.

At least the conscript PTRS can be changed without changing the Guard PTRS, since the two weapons are separate game file.

17 Jul 2016, 21:48 PM
#47
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2



shock troops with their smoke is still one of the best anti-mg infantry unit in the game.

their 1.5 armor also make the one of the toughest infantry squad in the game. It's got a six men squad with one of the highest defensive modifier in the game.






I will agree that the conscript PTRS got overnerfed with the separate weapon change and the damage change to the weapon.

At least the conscript PTRS can be changed without changing the Guard PTRS, since the two weapons are separate game file.



It's called a separate weapon entity, not game file.

And what's the reason they should be different anyway? It's the same weapon, ain't it?

Edit: At least buff them a bit, the doctrine is severely lacking besides the scavenge ability that's not even as good as the OKW one, I think it's the same as the British one.
17 Jul 2016, 21:51 PM
#48
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



their 1.5 armor also make the one of the toughest infantry squad in the game. It's got a six men squad with one of the highest defensive modifier in the game.



I wouldn't call them the toughest.

Sure, at vet 0 they are but as the game moves on, armor becomes obsolete.
HMGs have penetration over 1.5 so it's useless against them, useless against mounted HMGs on tanks and in mid-late game it's better to have lowe rec. acc. than armor.
17 Jul 2016, 22:11 PM
#49
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930



It's called a separate weapon entity, not game file.


now you're just arguing semantics. It's a separate weapon entity located in a different game file.

and originally you were arguing they are the same entity.



If you cared to read my first comment more carefully you would have already seen that I already mentioned that they have to be the same entity since they're useless on the cons.

17 Jul 2016, 22:13 PM
#50
avatar of United

Posts: 253

Guards>Shocks

Guards get long ranged firepower and anti vehicle capabilities in one package. They can also "stun" any vehicle.

Shock troops can only charge infantry and get shot.

Its clear which unit scales and which falls flat. Maybe in some niche shocks perform better in some situation, but Guards 9/10 are better and recommended. Plus with Penals new performance Shocktroops anti infantry capabilities are worth less.
17 Jul 2016, 22:19 PM
#51
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930



I wouldn't call them the toughest.

Sure, at vet 0 they are but as the game moves on, armor becomes obsolete.
HMGs have penetration over 1.5 so it's useless against them, useless against mounted HMGs on tanks and in mid-late game it's better to have lowe rec. acc. than armor.


infantry squad small arms still have penetration below 1.5.

and the default mg on the axis tank have 1 penetration. it's the pintle mounted mg that have hmg penetration.
17 Jul 2016, 22:30 PM
#52
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jul 2016, 22:13 PMUnited
Guards>Shocks

Guards get long ranged firepower and anti vehicle capabilities in one package. They can also "stun" any vehicle.

Shock troops can only charge infantry and get shot.

Its clear which unit scales and which falls flat. Maybe in some niche shocks perform better in some situation, but Guards 9/10 are better and recommended. Plus with Penals new performance Shocktroops anti infantry capabilities are worth less.

Your logic doesn't exactly prove your conclusion in practice considering Guards are pretty clearly the least effective infantry AT in the game and Button's pretty up there with Volley Fire in general uselessness.
17 Jul 2016, 22:55 PM
#53
avatar of United

Posts: 253

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jul 2016, 22:30 PMVuther

Your logic doesn't exactly prove your conclusion in practice considering Guards are pretty clearly the least effective infantry AT in the game and Button's pretty up there with Volley Fire in general uselessness.


Because Guards are so unpopular among Soviet players right? And Guards can pen light vehicles and medium tanks just fine, button has been nerfed since its earlier total disable, but calling it as worthless as volley fire is not true. Guards may not be the best AT squad in the game, but they are the best the soviets got. Shock troops role can be filled by Penals snipers and other units,(including guards themselves) but there is only one guards squad.
17 Jul 2016, 22:57 PM
#54
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2



now you're just arguing semantics. It's a separate weapon entity located in a different game file.

and originally you were arguing they are the same entity.



No, I said they HAVE TO BE, not are, HAVE TO BE, SHOULD BE.

That's why I said read carefully.

Again, THEY ARE USELESS on the cons, not so much on the Guards altho as the OP points out, they're pretty underpowerforming on them as well.
17 Jul 2016, 23:04 PM
#55
avatar of Mistah_S

Posts: 851 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jul 2016, 22:30 PMVuther

Your logic doesn't exactly prove your conclusion in practice considering Guards are pretty clearly the least effective infantry AT in the game and Button's pretty up there with Volley Fire in general uselessness.


4V4 is glaring at you, and your opinion.
17 Jul 2016, 23:06 PM
#56
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930



No, I said they HAVE TO BE, not are, HAVE TO BE, SHOULD BE.

That's why I said read carefully.

Again, THEY ARE USELESS on the cons, not so much on the Guards altho as the OP points out, they're pretty underpowerforming on them as well.


Just a little note, the PTRS is not only used by Guards but by Cons from the Tank Hunter tactics commander as well, but buffing it would mean you would also need to buff the German and British equivalents to the same levels so it's fair to everybody SINCE they're basically the same thing, all are mostly firing a .55 cal round.

Fun fact, the Soviet PTRS and PDRS are actually copied from a Finnish weapon, like the PPSh.

And yes I know that the Soviets are the main users of Anti-Tank rifles and that it's their only hand-held AT weapon compared to other Armies but having the British Tank Hunter Section is the Brits' only way of fighting early light vehicles because of the PIAT's inaccuracy while Idk Relic might decide to add a new German squad that uses the German Panzerbusche AT Rifle? For example a Panzerjager squad to the OKW that can upgrade to a single (or double) Shreck(s) that come by default with the AT rifle tho.
And buffing the PTRS entitiy also buffs the Con ones, not just the Guard ones.
17 Jul 2016, 23:29 PM
#57
avatar of Tiger Baron

Posts: 3145 | Subs: 2





I meant the weapon.

I'll give you a point about the second one tho, must have gotten confused or something.

Still, the less entities of a weapon we have, less stats to edit and waste time on as well.
17 Jul 2016, 23:31 PM
#58
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Jul 2016, 22:55 PMUnited


Because Guards are so unpopular among Soviet players right? And Guards can pen light vehicles and medium tanks just fine, button has been nerfed since its earlier total disable, but calling it as worthless as volley fire is not true. Guards may not be the best AT squad in the game, but they are the best the soviets got. Shock troops role can be filled by Penals snipers and other units,(including guards themselves) but there is only one guards squad.
well right now button is a temporary snare wich cost 40 mun so is really bad and the cool down and aim time of ptrs are wrost than zook so yea I would fix button to turret lock and slow and buff the cool down of ptrs while lowering their damage to infantry to 14
17 Jul 2016, 23:50 PM
#59
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2



infantry squad small arms still have penetration below 1.5.

and the default mg on the axis tank have 1 penetration. it's the pintle mounted mg that have hmg penetration.


IIRC the only ones with pen higher than 1.0 are LMG34, LMG42 and the FG42
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