The OKW conundrum

I feel like fussiliers would be fine as 5 men, same dps. Just smaller squad size. Aesthetically 6 men only work as ostruppen.

Something like that I long wanted...until the formation changes, of course. I wouldn't wish a squad size reduction on anything in this environment right now.

OKW is weird, man.

Balance wise I have no problem with 6 man Panzerfusies. It's just weird to see 6 man elite infantry for late-war Germany.

Not sure if I'd consider them elite. Man-for-man they're weaker than Grenadiers.

Really just a strange, strange unit.

Not sure if I'd consider them elite. Man-for-man they're weaker than Grenadiers.

This.

Not sure if I'd consider them elite. Man-for-man they're weaker than Grenadiers.

Same could be said about guards.

And Paratroopers, I think.

Same could be said about guards.

Except that guards generally fight 4 man squads and their dps is lower to compensate for that
(this is also the reason that axis sqauds generally have higher dps than their allied counterparts).

Since fussiliers generally fight 5-6 man sqauds,they don't have this compensation, thus it's not valid to compare them to guards for their elite status like this.

And Paratroopers, I think.

In terms of DPS, paratrooper is about equal to a grenadier - he'd have more dps up close (~60% more) but less further (~20% less). Upgrades not included.

Grens also have 0.91 rec acc. Paras or guards don't.

Grens also have 0.91 rec acc. Paras or guards don't.

Para's and guards have 50% more health and 50% more guns (6 man vs 4 man strikes again)
I somehow doubt a 9% received accuracy modifier makes up for that.

@tensai
Aren't para's with the lmg upgrade the highest dps squad ingame?
I seem to remember that from somewhere.

@zarok47 catch up with earlier posts first, we're talking model to model comparison, which originated from #62 post.

@zarok47 catch up with earlier posts first, we're talking model to model comparison, which originated from #62 post.

My first post in this thread (#67) explains why allied troops generally have less dps then their axis counterparts.
This is specificly the case with the model-to-model comparison, and thus you need to take into account the generally larger squad size when comparing allied to axis units.

Saying a unit has a received accuray modifier or higher dps in the model-to-model comparison without taking in account the squad sizes is therefore not showing the entire picture.

In that regard, i want to ask @TensaiOne whether your comparison is just straigh dps per model or altered to compsensate for the squad sizes?

That's surely modelwise. I think Paras has slightly more DPS at long range.

Same could be said about guards.

Guards are strange though, I don't know if I consider them all that 'elite', Relic seems to have intended them to be PTRS holders by default, and only be 'elite' with DP's. Shock Troops are a better comparison for Soviet Elites.

And Paratroopers, I think.

Paratroopers actually have very good DPS, having +2 men means they can even stand up to Panzergrenadiers on roughly equal footing.

Survivability wise though I think they aware close to Grens man for man.

I think Panzerfusies, Paratroopers, and Guards are supposed to be shock troops, in between line and elite quality. Think US Marines, the Paras, VDV, etc.

Survivability wise though I think they aware close to Grens man for man.

I think Panzerfusies, Paratroopers, and Guards are supposed to be shock troops, in between line and elite quality. Think US Marines, the Paras, VDV, etc.

What are the Shocks in this analogy, Spetsnaz GRU?

In terms of infantry combat in this game, a squad should be perhaps defined as "elite" if it can reliably defeat opposing regular infantry barring crazy RNG.
Squads that clearly fulfill this criteria:
OKW: Obers, arguably Fallis
Sov: Guards, Shocks
US: Paras
OH has no "elite" infantry, but this is compensated for to a point by the good scaling, utility and cost-efficiency of LMG Grens.

Now obviously, in practical gameplay terms, fights play out differently from a sterile testing environment and there are multipe other factors to consider when it comes to overall cost-efficiency, utility, etc., ie. PTRS being able to degrade cover or snipe models with stray shots, the use of abilities to negate specific weaknesses and close engagement distances, such as smoke, etc, the ability to deploy from buildings, squadsize and vulnerability to wipes, ease of use etc. etc.

Conscripts for example have extreme utility for their ability to close engagement ranges quickly - or softretreat without much hassle, construct and deny cover with Molotovs (building sandbags offers flat out extreme synergy with Guards), and snare vehicles. With regards to OKW, what makes the PFusis stand out is their higher resilience to wipes on top of their snare and sighting range, making them IMHO generally far more usable and cost efficient as a supplementary infantry than Obers or Fallis, even though they dont have the raw DPS, and niche utility, ie. the ability of Falls to spawn behind enemy lines in order to wipe squads or win you the engagement you just cant afford to lose.

Pretty much the above.

@Vuther I'd say that Shocks, Obers etc would be Royal Marines, Rangers, vanilla Spetnaz, Commando-Marine, etc.