Congratulations balance team

seeking is a member of T.R. clan so i know him (i actually told him to snipe miragefla to show him how op sections are) and he plays brits Becouse he clearly thinks that they are op and he wanted to see how easy he can get to top 10 in 1vs1

I mean are you actually going to comment on the game? OKW player despite losing his LV early was winning with just volk spam vs the apparently invinceable tommies. Then he threw away an easy win by going tiger stall and building a stuka vs comet with one ATG on the field. He also replaced his losses with vet0 volks, when obers would have eaten up rifle tommies.

Stormjager what exactly is the issue you have with this clip?

Call me a Brit fanboy if you like (they are my highest rank, just played Wehr all day tho so whatevs), but I disagree that this is a balance issue. Even if I don't think "manpower maths" is valid in most cases, Kaitof has a really obvious point here.

There are EIGHT sections here, plus bolster upgrade and extra reinforce costs, plus grenade upgrade, plus medic and pyro, plus they throw a succesful grenade. Versus 3 stock grens and 2 MG42s.

In terms of MP / Muni / Fuel, that's something like 2400 / 300 / 50 compared to 980 / 0 / 0.

Yes, it was a massive noob play by the UKF player. But how was he allowed to get to that point? Where is the rest of the Wehr army? If UKF player bought only sections, why didn't Wehr get 222 or 444?

And can this really be explained by the relatively minor buffs to moving accuracy and received accuracy to IS in the last patch?

Good post, but this is turning into the tiger thread already with denial of stats.

I would like to see this moving accuracy a few people are crying about? From what I've seen rifles and BARS still blow all other mainlines out the water for moving DPS. Obers and stg volks aren't bad on the move themselves...

The foaming at the mouth from stormjager or incrounds is really crazy to me, pretty much all tommies got was 0.05 extra RA out of cover (they are still weaker than before due to RA reductuin two patches ago) and a minor buff to moving acc on Rifles. But they're hardly penal or rifleman tier.

The problem with last patch is when you nerf their RA all the way down to 0.90 they will really get walked all over by obers and Ost G43s. Which considering IS are the most expensive line infantry in the game is obviously problematic.

seeking is a member of T.R. clan so i know him (i actually told him to snipe miragefla to show him how op sections are) and he plays brits Becouse he clearly thinks that they are op and he wanted to see how easy he can get to top 10 in 1vs1

Isn't stream sniping a violation of the code of conduct?

Jesus H Christ what the fuck am I reading here.

Alright fellas, you better strap in because I'm about to show you why sections are fucking ridiculous, Let's begin with the early game where they are at their weakest- Oh, wait they're fucking not.

So this is where the section problems begin, right out of the fucking gate, so ask yourself why are sections stronger early game?
Simple, they have a numbers advantage because they start with their mainline right out of the game, ostheer and okw both have engineer units who are CQC oriented right? So on a pound to pound basis where your mainline production is going to be similar (4 volks/3volks+1fusi, 3grens/4grens) You are going to be outnumbered because the meta is going 5 sections, now you could make the case that trying to equal the numbers out is viable (its not really the case, as i've tried time and time again vs brits with 5 volks doesn't work)
So from out of the gate on a quality level he's going to have an advantage, on some maps, this may be weaker, but as you can see in the clips earlier, getting close with grens is a fool's quest, it doesn't allow you to actually trade well because you'll lose half the squad so fucking quickly and then he can retreat away with having suffered no bleed at all.

Alright so that's the first problem out of the way, now let's throw in the rest
They get self spotting at vet 1
They get self-healing which means they can be on the map constantly with no drawback while everyone else has to retreat
they get sandbags and trenches which is way stronger in their hands than any other unit because of the cover bonus
And (I'm not 100% this is true but I've heard it before) they get a 25% faster cap rate.

So from the initial engagements, it's not unrealistic to actually being forced to charge right on to a sandbag section. So let me ask you this as a follow-up. Should i be rewarded for making a sandbag and sitting my ass down to hold a point despite it requires almost no effort on my end? and almost thrice the effort of my opponent to push me out?

Quite frankly sandbgs have no place on ANY mainline infantry and should be promptly removed.

Moving on
Trading efficiency
Fun fact, normal greens are completely irrelevant in the brit matchup because you cannot on any level trade efficiently and have to spend 60 munis on another gren to compete with the sections+ veterancy to get the remotest of chances to compete with them.
The simple reason is well grens cost 30 to reinforce sections cost 28 mp to reinforce, so now you're at a situation where you cannot win most of the engagements you take that are going to be one on one and even if you do you still come out losing manpower wise.


So i could go on about this forever (lmg upgrades being fucking ridiculously strong for example, assault being retarded, officer having free recon, AEC timing negating 222s and 250s, the amazing teching they get which allows for 11 minute cromwells. or the fact that you get a premium high end Comet with phopshours,smoke,blitz,grenades and amazing armour which allows you to bounce KTs. The command aura from churchills having abusrdly strong bonuses. ect ect) but I won't because it's quite frankly a waste of time since I have a feeling most of you will just ignore what I'm saying anyway. So let's move over to what i think is a good solution

My suggestion for a solution that i think would work, get rid of sandbags, trenches, give them five man out of the gate, get rid of the coverbonus, decrease their firepower and reduce their cost if need be and give them a snare if its so fucking desperate to deal with LVHs. Reduce the AECs anti infantryt pintle and make treadbreak not get stronger with vet. make the vickers 50 muni per, Make assault sections lose their phosp grenade, and increase the last tech level for brits so the cromwell doesn't get the best timing in the game.

+11111111111

I was getting tired of "ostheer is one of the most well balanced armies in the game" already in 2015. Every other faction has had MAD POWERCREEP since 2014 and ostheer gets nothing... only buffs to completely dead units like ostwind who noone used for years at all and are now on par with their other mediocre units.

Grenadiers are laughable bad. 30 MP reinforce for what?? They lose to everything and you can never position them to wreck other infantry, at best you can be in a position to hold your own but you will never wreck like a flanking 7 man conscripts or riflemen. Tommies is just like grenadiers but actually good. To make matters worse ostheer never got a proper light vehicle so what are ostheer good at? They are not good at defense since both conscripts and tommies has sandbags on their mainline but ostheer ofc don't get that. They had the best tanks until allied cryboys demanded buffs to their tanks and now they are equal or arguable better. The answer to whats good about ostheer is NOTHING and thats why everyone is playing OKW.

And no MG42 is not so good that it makes ostheer a good army, vickers are atleast as good and personally i rather take the 50cal who does sick damage and wreck LTV without having to wait for that buggy reload (incendiary rounds).

To win as ostheer you hide behind your MG42 and pak walls hoping and praying your opponent is gonna make a mistake because you know that as ostheer there are no plays to be made.

Jesus H Christ what the fuck am I reading here.

Alright fellas, you better strap in because I'm about to show you why sections are fucking ridiculous, Let's begin with the early game where they are at their weakest- Oh, wait they're fucking not.

So this is where the section problems begin, right out of the fucking gate, so ask yourself why are sections stronger early game?
Simple, they have a numbers advantage because they start with their mainline right out of the game, ostheer and okw both have engineer units who are CQC oriented right? So on a pound to pound basis where your mainline production is going to be similar (4 volks/3volks+1fusi, 3grens/4grens) You are going to be outnumbered because the meta is going 5 sections, now you could make the case that trying to equal the numbers out is viable (its not really the case, as i've tried time and time again vs brits with 5 volks doesn't work)
So from out of the gate on a quality level he's going to have an advantage, on some maps, this may be weaker, but as you can see in the clips earlier, getting close with grens is a fool's quest, it doesn't allow you to actually trade well because you'll lose half the squad so fucking quickly and then he can retreat away with having suffered no bleed at all.

Alright so that's the first problem out of the way, now let's throw in the rest
They get self spotting at vet 1
They get self-healing which means they can be on the map constantly with no drawback while everyone else has to retreat
they get sandbags and trenches which is way stronger in their hands than any other unit because of the cover bonus
And (I'm not 100% this is true but I've heard it before) they get a 25% faster cap rate.

So from the initial engagements, it's not unrealistic to actually being forced to charge right on to a sandbag section. So let me ask you this as a follow-up. Should i be rewarded for making a sandbag and sitting my ass down to hold a point despite it requires almost no effort on my end? and almost thrice the effort of my opponent to push me out?

Quite frankly sandbgs have no place on ANY mainline infantry and should be promptly removed.

Moving on
Trading efficiency
Fun fact, normal greens are completely irrelevant in the brit matchup because you cannot on any level trade efficiently and have to spend 60 munis on another gren to compete with the sections+ veterancy to get the remotest of chances to compete with them.
The simple reason is well grens cost 30 to reinforce sections cost 28 mp to reinforce, so now you're at a situation where you cannot win most of the engagements you take that are going to be one on one and even if you do you still come out losing manpower wise.


So i could go on about this forever (lmg upgrades being fucking ridiculously strong for example, assault being retarded, officer having free recon, AEC timing negating 222s and 250s, the amazing teching they get which allows for 11 minute cromwells. or the fact that you get a premium high end Comet with phopshours,smoke,blitz,grenades and amazing armour which allows you to bounce KTs. The command aura from churchills having abusrdly strong bonuses. ect ect) but I won't because it's quite frankly a waste of time since I have a feeling most of you will just ignore what I'm saying anyway. So let's move over to what i think is a good solution

My suggestion for a solution that i think would work, get rid of sandbags, trenches, give them five man out of the gate, get rid of the coverbonus, decrease their firepower and reduce their cost if need be and give them a snare if its so fucking desperate to deal with LVHs. Reduce the AECs anti infantryt pintle and make treadbreak not get stronger with vet. make the vickers 50 muni per, Make assault sections lose their phosp grenade, and increase the last tech level for brits so the cromwell doesn't get the best timing in the game.

Nothing to add.

Isn't stream sniping a violation of the code of conduct?

That's ghosting.

Isn't stream sniping a violation of the code of conduct?

Ghosting is 100% no go, stream sniping is ok when it's like friendly snipes and there's no harassment.

IS still have their reduced manpower reinforcement cost that got added like 5 years ago. It's time to realign them with the standard manpower formula.

Really the problem is that it's too cost efficient to just spam out tommies, not so much their raw performance. Sandbags should also not be on any mainline infantry unit, but that's a bit off topic.

I have played as Ost against Brits post patch. Was doing well early game, was sniping vicker models and steadily getting map control.

My opponent sends me a text: lol, good game. Out comes 5 IS that completely wrecks my stuff.

So I got rofl stomped, lol.

IS still have their reduced manpower reinforcement cost that got added like 5 years ago. It's time to realign them with the standard manpower formula.

Really the problem is that it's too cost efficient to just spam out tommies, not so much their raw performance. Sandbags should also not be on any mainline infantry unit, but that's a bit off topic.

Reinforcement cost isn't the problem, it's DPS.

Even if the IS' reinforce cost was increased dramatically (32-34mp or something), it wouldn't matter. IS blobs deal so much damage so quickly that there isn't enough time for them to take that many losses.

DPS needs to be toned down significantly, so that they trade normally with other infantry squads in most situations. Part of that is going to have to be revisiting/removing the cover bonus, so that their performance is (more) consistent throughout the game.

Even if increasing reinforce/build costs slowed down the prevalence of 5+ IS blobs, all it does is exactly that - slow it down. It needs to be fixed, not turned into a game of "don't let UKF hit critical mass".

...

You don't get it right?
I'll rather someone end up been wrong but providing good arguments than someone been right and giving crap arguments.

Hence the first real comment in 5 pages comes from a single person.

...

With all the changes done to UKF, i don't think it will settle down as something as simple as "just" spam IS and win.

1- So, what's in your opinion the reason UKF saw poor performance on 1v1 during the last patch.
Was it too risky to bet all your chips in trying to "steamroll" either OH/OKW early on and if failing in doing so you would lose to heavy meta?

The changes on their early game hasn't change too much and the tournament (2v2) played on the preview patch didn't play like anything that we saw on the clips or what you described.

2- Has the faction been made easier rather than just better overall, specially at the top?

3- Why the hell would you want to, on 1v1, match UKF IS 1on1 with Grens when you can open up with sniper? It's basically 2015/2016 all over again.
With OKW i don't think people will try a fast Flak HT back up by rak on 1v1 but maybe on teamgames. Still i think it's way more safe to just P2 into Puma as always.

4- I more or less agree with the "solutions".
-If IS is no longer meme unit outside of cover, then you can just let Ro En have the sandbags and let them just build trenches (similar to grens with meme bunkers who no one use as cover cause they are expensive).
-Now that they buffed the Cromwell, they could see to adjust UKF medium timing (i might be wrong, cause plenty of changes to other factions timing but i'm under the impression they had one of the fastest mediums when skipping upgrades).
-I still think that 5th man upgrade should not be done automatically and should take a weapon slot. Plenty of times this is skipped but it's better to address this once for all.

PD: we have a tournament in less than a week.

Not sure if we will have a "meta" form by that point. Time will tell if people are gonna swap their precious SU or USF for UKF or not.

PD: we have a tournament in less than a week. Not sure if we will have a "meta" form by that point. Time will tell if people are gonna swap their precious SU or USF for UKF or not.

While I normally support the "wait for tournament" approach, this strategy seems to get much, much worse when there are multiple players. A single UKF player doing this is rough, but possible to counter. Two UKF players (so 10+ IS) is insane.

what a rando clip.
just blobbing and a l2p issue.

This is what happen when the 2 mg are still gardening after a recon pass. lol at the half health gren gardening

why are grens charging into the blob? The grens were in process of lmg upgrade.
how did the wehrboo allowed 7 bolster IS squads?

As a 1000 rank player, i know better to move my mg42 back some after the recon pass, wait for lmg gren to complete the upgrade, and totally expect to retreat, just a do short engagement with the incoming blob, to stall for some resources.

quickly tech to Ostwind.

IS still have their reduced manpower reinforcement cost that got added like 5 years ago. It's time to realign them with the standard manpower formula.

Thing is, the reinforcement cost is in line with bolster, which they are expected to have 100% of the games.
Also there is one, maybe two axis squads who do NOT have that mp reduction, so I don't think single units across 3 allied factions having it due to sniper vulnerability is any problem.

I have played as Ost against Brits post patch. Was doing well early game, was sniping vicker models and steadily getting map control.

My opponent sends me a text: lol, good game. Out comes 5 IS that completely wrecks my stuff.

So I got rofl stomped, lol.

Source: "Trust me bro, I could save a replay, but I was too busy crying"
Also, at your rank, it could be 5 combat engineers and result would be the same for you.

It has been argued that Ostheer are simply loosing to superior player.

Is the link to the whole game? Because from what I see in the clip that axis team seem to have an advantage but without the rest of the game it is difficult to tell.

The patch made Tommies a normal mainline infantry without removing their special defensive benefits like sandbags and increased cap speed (decap speed is normal). Just the moving accuracy is huge. Almost 50% more DPS on the move! Better at chasing, better at blobbing, better at hitting those few extra shots when combat starts and both sides are moving to cover. Imagine buffing gren or con moving accuracy to 0.75

4 units vs 7 units with grenades, small army not in cover and moving into bigger army.

Try moving 2 maxims and 2 conscripts into 7 grens shooting rifle nades at you. The outcome will be the same.

definitely a l2p issue.
A simple mass retreat is enough. IS blob is a big risk without AT. Regroup and get an Ostwind or 222 if you need it faster.