Bounce rates

Can someone please explain to me how the bounce rates on armour works?

In 1 game i had a T34/85 bounce 4 shots in a row against a panther

And the same tank also bounced 3 shots on a Panzer 4.

It seems the SU85 (Which has the exact same gun) rarely ever bounces a round on German tanks, except from Tigers.

I find it irritating when a German tank is nearly dead, yet the game wants to rim you and make all your shots do nothing.

Also why do Soviet tanks rarely ever bounce shots? Soviet armour was way more sloped.

Is this just RNG?

Can someone please explain to me how the bounce rates on armour works?

In 1 game i had a T34/85 bounce 4 shots in a row against a panther

And the same tank also bounced 3 shots on a Panzer 4.

It seems the SU85 (Which has the exact same gun) rarely ever bounces a round on German tanks, except from Tigers.

I find it irritating when a German tank is nearly dead, yet the game wants to rim you and make all your shots do nothing.

Also why do Soviet tanks rarely ever bounce shots? Soviet armour was way more sloped.

Is this just RNG?

RNG plus distance I guess. Sov tanks are designed to be effective close range agains axis tanks. Axis tanks generally have better penetration far and are more expensive. To even the odds you must close in on them. The exception is tank destroyers. Su 85 has a different gun and will penetrate reliably from a distance unless it is the heaviest amour. Remeber also that OKW panzer 4 is different (better and more expensive) to ostheer stock p4.

RNG plus distance I guess. Sov tanks are designed to be effective close range agains axis tanks. Axis tanks generally have better penetration far and are more expensive. To even the odds you must close in on them. The exception is tank destroyers. Su 85 has a different gun and will penetrate reliably from a distance unless it is the heaviest amour. Remeber also that OKW panzer 4 is different (better and more expensive) to ostheer stock p4.

That's a really good point

The issue is i was very close, is it just a case of "rng"?

I mean admitedly i was attacking it from the front.

That's a really good point

The issue is i was very close, is it just a case of "rng"?

I mean admitedly i was attacking it from the front.

A lot depends on the details - rng could be unfortunate.

I tyhink t34/85 is better than standard ostheer panzer 4 and should kill it reliably mid/close distance (both 0 vet). With OKW panzer 4 or vetter stock ostheer p4 you should be more careful. But idk which tanks you actually mean.

penetration divided by armor *100%
so if for example a tank has 200 penetration and enemy has 200 or less armor then it will always penetrate, if it has 400 armor then it has 50% chance to penetrate, the RNG you're talking here about it totally random, once you cant penetrate shit, later on you penetrate every shot even tho your chances for it are fairly low

Can someone please explain to me how the bounce rates on armour works?

In 1 game i had a T34/85 bounce 4 shots in a row against a panther

And the same tank also bounced 3 shots on a Panzer 4.

It seems the SU85 (Which has the exact same gun) rarely ever bounces a round on German tanks, except from Tigers.

I find it irritating when a German tank is nearly dead, yet the game wants to rim you and make all your shots do nothing.

Also why do Soviet tanks rarely ever bounce shots? Soviet armour was way more sloped.

Is this just RNG?

Basically what Barton said.

Penetration value divided by armor of the enemy. Penetration is range dependent and increases at smaller distances, armor is always constant. So the penetration chance is bigger at low distances. Rule of thumb: Axis are better at distance, Allies should close in distance. Heavies (independent of faction and side) are always better used at long distance.

Example: At range 40, T34/85 has 120 penetration. Ostheer PanzerIV has 180 armor. This means:

120/180 = 66,7% chance of penetration.

If the shot penetrates, full damage is applied (160 damage for most of the weapons, while most mediums can take 640 damage = 4 shots, fourth shot is the kill shot).

Now penetration increases at lower distances. The setup above at range 10 would be:
T34/85 penetration: 150
armor P4 (stays constant): 180

pen chance = 150/180 = 83,3% (so 16% gain by closing in).

The rest is RNG. Your tank could actually never pen an enemy the whole match or you could pen every shot although you only have 20% chance per shot.



Are you also sure that the T34/85 really bounces a Panther shot? Technically, a Panther should always pen a medium tank.
One thing though: there is also accuracy. First it is rolled if a shot hits or not. If it does, there's RNG again to see if it penetrates. A shot that "misses" is still fired (obviously) and can still hit the target by collision.

Also why do Soviet tanks rarely ever bounce shots? Soviet armour was way more sloped

T-34 armor was only impressive when they first saw action, when the Germans mostly used 37mm and 50mm (anti-)tank guns. Once the Germans upgraded to 75mm and 88mm guns, they went through it like a hot knife through butter.

Despite these deficiencies, the T-34's armour proved problematic for the Germans in the initial stages of the war on the Eastern Front. In one wartime account, a single T-34 came under heavy fire upon encountering one of the most common German anti-tank guns at that stage of the war: "Remarkably enough, one determined 37 mm gun crew reported firing 23 times against a single T-34 tank, only managing to jam the tank’s turret ring." Similarly, a German report of May 1942 noted the ineffectiveness of their 50 mm gun as well, noting that "Combating the T-34 with the 5 cm KwK tank gun is possible only at short ranges from the flank or rear, where it is important to achieve a hit as perpendicular to the surface as possible."

However, a Military Commissariat Report of the 10th Tank Division, dated 2 August 1941 reported that within 300–400 m the 37 mm Pak 36's armour-piercing shot could defeat the frontal armour. According to an examination of damaged T-34 tanks in several repair workshops in August to September 1942, collected by the People's Commissariat for Tank Industry in January 1943, 54.3% of all T-34 losses were caused by the German long-barreled 50 mm KwK 39 gun.

As the war went on, the T-34 gradually lost some of its initial advantages. The Germans responded to the T-34 by fielding large numbers of improved anti-tank weapons such as the towed 75 mm gun, while hits from 88 mm-armed Tigers, anti-aircraft guns and PaK 43 88 mm anti-tank guns usually proved lethal. A Wa Pruef 1 report estimated that, with the target angled 30° sideward, a Panther tank could penetrate the turret of a T-34-85 from the front at ranges up to 2000 m, the mantlet at 1200 m, and the frontal hull armour at 300 m. According to the Pantherfibel, the T-34's glacis could be penetrated from 800 m and the mantlet from 1500 m at 30° sideward angle. Ground trials by employees of NIBT Polygon in May 1943 reported that the KwK 36 88 mm gun could pierce the T-34 frontal hull from 1,500 meters at 90 degrees and cause a disastrous burst effect inside the tank.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34#Armour (can't be bothered looking up more credible sources)


Besides that, it's a game, and it's only historically flavoured and not historically accurate.

It seems the SU85 (Which has the exact same gun) rarely ever bounces a round on German tanks, except from Tigers.

Nobody's addressed this part, but that's because this is a game, and the same gun in real life doesn't necessarily mean the same performance in-game. Liberties are taken to reinforce a vehicle's roles, and weapons function differently than they would have. The SU-85 and T-34-85 have the same gun, but one is a tank destroyer and the other is a generalist medium tank. The ZiS-3 and SU-76 have the same gun use the same gun, but SU-76 does less damage. The Panzer IV and StuG III have the same gun, the Jagdpanzer and Panther have the same gun, the Panzer II and SdKfz 222, etc. There are many more examples, but for the most part guns are more tied to the unit's role.

T-34 armor was only impressive when they first saw action, when the Germans mostly used 37mm and 50mm (anti-)tank guns. Once the Germans upgraded to 75mm and 88mm guns, they went through it like a hot knife through butter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-34#Armour (can't be bothered looking up more credible sources)


Besides that, it's a game, and it's only historically flavoured and not historically accurate.

Not many people know the T-34's armor had similar armor protection to the infamous Tiger Tank, just a few millimeter's shy of the Tiger's 100mm upper glacis. It's just that Allied armor is downplayed due to the PaK 40's effectiveness, while the Tiger tank is overplayed due to Soviet guns ineffectiveness until the 85mm D-5T was fielded. In actuality the Sherman and T-34 are better armored than anything smaller than a Tiger or Panther, including the all variations of the Panzer IV and StuG series, the bulk of Germany's panzer forces. Show Spoiler

I massively appreciate everyones advice/response.

I have a way better understanding! Thanks

Nobody's addressed this part, but that's because this is a game, and the same gun in real life doesn't necessarily mean the same performance in-game. Liberties are taken to reinforce a vehicle's roles, and weapons function differently than they would have. The SU-85 and T-34-85 have the same gun, but one is a tank destroyer and the other is a generalist medium tank. The ZiS-3 and SU-76 have the same gun use the same gun, but SU-76 does less damage. The Panzer IV and StuG III have the same gun, the Jagdpanzer and Panther have the same gun, the Panzer II and SdKfz 222, etc. There are many more examples, but for the most part guns are more tied to the unit's role.



Not many people know the T-34's armor had similar armor protection to the infamous Tiger Tank, just a few millimeter's shy of the Tiger's 100mm upper glacis. It's just that Allied armor is downplayed due to the PaK 40's effectiveness, while the Tiger tank is overplayed due to Soviet guns ineffectiveness until the 85mm D-5T was fielded. In actuality the Sherman and T-34 are better armored than anything smaller than a Tiger or Panther, including the all variations of the Panzer IV and StuG series, the bulk of Germany's panzer forces. Show Spoiler

that's only if angled, check war thunder is run by Russian dev and they have real armor mm for each tanks

Not many people know the T-34's armor had similar armor protection to the infamous Tiger Tank, just a few millimeter's shy of the Tiger's 100mm upper glacis

As far as I know, T-34s had 45mm at 60 degrees giving it 90mm effective thickness, while the Tiger had 102mm plates at 10 and 20 degrees, giving it 103-108 effective thickness on the upper and lower glacis, and the almost horizontal 62mm plate in between. That's significantly better protection than the T-34 in the mid war years when penetration didn't skyrocket yet. On top of that, Tiger drivers were trained to angle their tank in combat to maximize the relative armor thickness.

Not many people know the T-34's armor had similar armor protection to the infamous Tiger Tank, just a few millimeter's shy of the Tiger's 100mm upper glacis. It's just that Allied armor is downplayed due to the PaK 40's effectiveness, while the Tiger tank is overplayed due to Soviet guns ineffectiveness until the 85mm D-5T was fielded. In actuality the Sherman and T-34 are better armored than anything smaller than a Tiger or Panther, including the all variations of the Panzer IV and StuG series, the bulk of Germany's panzer forces. Show Spoiler

Not many people know that simply angled armor is more efficient at the same angle of attack but only if we ignore ballistics and shell composition and velocity.
But if T-34 were indeed as armored as tiger tanks, they will be also as heavy as a tiger tank, therefore impossible to be as fast, as massively produced, as replaceable and most importantly as efficient.

Tiger tanks are awesome.

Bah for efficiency t 34 were better especially the 85 as they used less stell ,were more easily repairable, and faster to produce

Can someone please explain to me how the bounce rates on armour works?

In 1 game i had a T34/85 bounce 4 shots in a row against a panther

And the same tank also bounced 3 shots on a Panzer 4.

It seems the SU85 (Which has the exact same gun) rarely ever bounces a round on German tanks, except from Tigers.

I find it irritating when a German tank is nearly dead, yet the game wants to rim you and make all your shots do nothing.

Also why do Soviet tanks rarely ever bounce shots? Soviet armour was way more sloped.

Is this just RNG?

Yesterday my panther bounced 2 times frontal on an is2 with 1% energie from 10m distance. He could escape and i lost the pather. Great rng

Many people simply imply that the Tiger would face the gun at 90 degree angle. Fact is that all crews were explicitly ordered to angle the armor. There is even a word for it: Mahlzeitstellung.

Sacrifice more goats to RNGesus.

Yesterday my panther bounced 2 times frontal on an is2 with 1% energie from 10m distance. He could escape and i lost the pather. Great rng

It's so infuriating isn't it? XD

You don't see many IS-2's now days