I think the unit is OK, but like the US Pack Howitzer it seems to have extremely variable performance from game to game. Sometimes, it'll only have 3 kills after 15 mins, but other times it wipes squads left and right. Generally though, I agree that it needs a cost reduction. Its slightly absurd that it costs more than the Soviet 120mm Mortar, given their respective capabilities. An AOE buff might be suitable as well, since unit should be built as a counter to weapon teams, but in my experience can take an awfully long time to force a Maxim squad to retreat. |
Highlights for those who don't want to watch:
They are more focused on refining balance/bug fixes than new content due to the ESL tournament.
They suggest they are looking into rebindable hotkeys and MG reloading.
All changes to infantry are not intended to change overall unit power/value - no nerfs or buffs.
New custom match maps may go into automatch in time, Relic wants to see how they do and fine tune them.
Call-ins were brought up, Noun's response was "tell us what you want us to do." No mention of a change in the pipeline. Later, they say that any call-in change will have a significant impact (especially on Soviets), so they don't want to rush a solution. It may take time.
They are "keeping an eye on" Assault Engineers.
Question about new 4v4 maps. "Possibly something coming up in November."
They are interested in the idea of a "PBE beta" environment for people to try out balance changes before they go live.
Missing changes in official changelog are an unfortunate error.
Wehrmacht/Soviet faction design as a whole being worked on, very long term thing however.
They are trying to find a way to keep old replays useable. No indication of timeline. |
Sturms are fine, just fill a different role now. I think the Sturm and PGren changes show that Relic is interested in creating a new 'class' of infantry, distinct from rifle infantry and CQC SMG infantry. The new class is something like "mid-range assault rifle" troops. Possibly Sturms need some tweaks to fulfil this role effectively, but Relic's comments on stream suggest that they aren't just going to revert the changes they already made. |
Yeah, I do wish more people would take into account the way that the game differs based on the skill level you are match-made at. Player Cards are important for this reason, they give context for what someone is saying about balance. Sometimes, I just kind of laugh when someone at rank 3500 posts a thread about X being OP. Not out of elitism (I totally respect that everyone plays at their own level, god knows I suck at lots of other games), but because I feel like someone at that level should understand that their experience of the game doesn't reflect how the game is best played.
Maybe we should just have a special balance forum where only people in the top 200 can post, but everyone else can view? I think that'd be interesting, actually. Keep the other forum, of course.
I really like this idea. Maybe this forum could also have a strict policy of requiring citations i.e. if you talk about how X unit is OP OMG RELIC FIX PLS, you have to provide at least 3 replays that demonstrate how and why X is OP. |
I think Guards themselves perform OK, but they've fallen victim to a particular quirk of Relic balance I have noticed: nerfing a unit's performance without reducing its cost. I don't think Guards are necessarily too weak, but their is no longer a good reflection of their performance. In particular the munitions cost - 75 for the DPs is pretty punishing, as is 45 for a mediocre grenade. Guards can quickly become munitions sinks, especially once you start using Button.
Needless to say, the weapon dropping situation needs to be fixed as well. No other unit suffers in the same way that Guards do. |
The tools to beat blobs are already in the game. Blobbing may prevail at certain levels of play because it is very easy, but I promise you that with good micro, tactical use of cover is absolutely more effective. I recommend things like Mortars, Mines, Demo Charges, Flamethrowers, Zis barrage for the mid game, and heavy artillery and armour for the late game. If you provide a replay, I'd be happy to give some more specific advice.
I think the "anti-zeal" mechanic many people suggest is an extremely bad idea. Firstly, its very unintuitive. But more importantly, it will lead to absurd and stupid situations in-game. There are valid reasons for keeping, say, 2 or 3 squads behind the same piece of cover, but this would be punished along with regular blobbing. A player could end up losing an otherwise even engagement because his units wandered too close together and got debuffed. Players should be focused on how best to beat their opponent, not on microing to keep their units an arbitrary distance apart. |
I believe the point of the nerf was to change the strat OP is describing. Snipers are punishing to both OKW and Ost, and light vehicles such as the 221 should be the counter. Guards broke this too much due to the strength of button.
Anyway, they are still useable. Button now requires a bit more thought to use, which I think is a very good thing. I think the nerf to their DPs was a bit unnecessary however, since Guards were hardly over-performing in an anti-infantry role. Still a decent unit. |
I'd like a to talk about the way this patch has affected the 1v1 Soviet/Ostheer matchup.
Since the patch, I've been encountering the same strat over and over again in 1v1 matchmaking (or variations on it): Maxim spam into a T34 rush. Maxim spam has been around for ages but it seems worse than ever now that the 25% recieved accuracy penalty on Soviet weapon teams has been removed. Meanwhile, the changes to Grens seem pretty worrying as they are now thoroughly outmatched by Cons. The Relic patch notes suggest that Grens should be advantaged at long range, but I am finding it very difficult to keep Cons at long range due to the ease of Oorah!ing and then moving to a slightly closer piece of cover. Additionally, the 4 man Gren squad makes firefights very volatile since losing an unlucky model early on results in complete defeat. This is made all the worse by the fact that healing requires an investment of munitions.
Previously, I would simply build a mortar in response to Maxims, and rely on the fact that once LMGs were upgraded Grens could shred Maxim squads if they flanked the arc. Now, I find that this isn't enough, but any greater investment of fuel/munitions in stuff to counter Maxims simply results in me being all the more fucked once the T34 (or even T70) hits the field.
Has everyone else had similar experiences, or do I just need to "L2P"? My previous build order was Gren, Gren, MG, Gren, MG; with the appropriate flexibility based on map or my opponents units. Now, I've been trying various BOs and doctrines and can't find anything that really works. What should I be doing in this matchup? |
After some more games, I really like how this commander is set up. I think Sprint on all infantry is actually incredibly strong and opens up a lot of tactical opportunities late game. Stuff like smoke barrage + sprinting Grens to break defences e.t.c.
I also think Stormtroopers are really exceptional in a dedicated vehicle hunting role. That Katyusha bothering you? ISU being repaired on 10% HP? Spawn Storms from a nearby building out of LOS, and wait for Panzerschreck upgrade to complete. Then, use Armoured Vehicle Detection and go for it. Sprint ensures it won't get away. The STG upgrade is also pretty good, although I'm not sure how different from PGrens they are (anyone got the DPS stats yet?).
I think all the Close the Pocket, economy harassment stuff should be seen as super-luxury, rather than the core of the doctrine. |
I think its OK.
I like sprint, and Stormtroopers are decent although they kind of overlap with PGrens in terms of function. The ability to deploy from buildings is pretty cool for Ostheer as well.
All the other stuff is pretty much based around setting up a game-winning "Close the Pocket". I like this as a mechanic, but it is very map dependant, to the point where on some maps Close the Pocket is practically impossible to use.
I think whether or not it has a place in the meta depends on how the buffs to Ostheer T4 pan out. The lack of a Tiger or other late game unit would have been a fatal weakness pre-patch, but maybe now doctrines like that are more valid. |