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Why does the Firefly have to suck so much?

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13 Mar 2019, 09:30 AM
#181
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



Spoken as a peak example of somebody who has only ever lost tanks to a Firefly, and never had to try and use one.
i use them and a lot, it's just that in 1vs 1 a 6 pounder does it's job just fine as it's a fantastic at gun, i generally use the FF when i expect panther or in team games
they are really strong at vet 3 when they get the damage bonus and take one less hoot to kill tanks

btw u speak as a peak example as someone who does not play COH2 cause u know that most engagement don't happen at 60 range and ff has better pen than other TD at 52 range already
13 Mar 2019, 11:50 AM
#182
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

it's already cost efficient, best accuracy, best mid range (so even more pen and accuracy), one of the best vet, turret
if we add tulips and tank commander it's beast that can stun and one shoot tanks


I'm of the opinion it performs the same as a jagdpanzer, just the JP comes stock with good DPS and gets defensive vet (17 target size+vet make it a pain to kill even chasing with meds). FF gets offensive vet and lacks DPS but a tiny bit more mobility.

Yet jp is cheaper and less popcap, imo this is the issue. Just a small price drop so they're at the same level.

It's also worth mentioning war speed and tracking are locked in a dead tech tier because the comet is a waste of fuel. I think if hammer wasn't so "meh" people would feel a bit better for spending 440mp 155f+muni on the firefly. As it stands noone us going to lock themselves out of the Churchill and OKW repair speeds just for the nerfed war speed and satchel charges.
13 Mar 2019, 12:10 PM
#183
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


... As it stands noone us going to lock themselves out of the Churchill and OKW repair speeds just for the nerfed war speed and satchel charges.

5 men Heavy sapper actually reaper faster than SP.

Hammer also provides hammer trucking which is a very powerful ability especially for TDs.
13 Mar 2019, 12:28 PM
#184
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



I'm of the opinion it performs the same as a jagdpanzer, just the JP comes stock with good DPS and gets defensive vet (17 target size+vet make it a pain to kill even chasing with meds). FF gets offensive vet and lacks DPS but a tiny bit more mobility.

Yet jp is cheaper and less popcap, imo this is the issue. Just a small price drop so they're at the same level.

It's also worth mentioning war speed and tracking are locked in a dead tech tier because the comet is a waste of fuel. I think if hammer wasn't so "meh" people would feel a bit better for spending 440mp 155f+muni on the firefly. As it stands noone us going to lock themselves out of the Churchill and OKW repair speeds just for the nerfed war speed and satchel charges.
i believe the m36 fits better as they have similar dps and pen

while the jp has lower pen and no turret so no don't compare price to it, it's like comparing the okw p4 to the Sherman and saying okw p4 needs to cost less
13 Mar 2019, 12:31 PM
#185
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 12:10 PMVipper

5 men Heavy sapper actually reaper faster than SP.

Hammer also provides hammer trucking which is a very powerful ability especially for TDs.


Pretty sure sturms repair faster with vet? But then you also have the mech truck pios. Brits can struggle to keep up with that without a couple heavy sappers.

Hammer tracking is nice but it's no 55 range LoS like on a command panther. Hammer is dead in current meta for a reason
13 Mar 2019, 12:32 PM
#186
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



Pretty sure sturms repair faster with vet? But then you also have the mech truck pios. Brits can struggle to keep up with that without a couple heavy sapper.

Hammer tracking is nice but it's no 55 range LoS like on a command panther. Hammer is dead in current meta for a reason
they nerfed repair speed like 2 patches ago, the command panther is form a commander get valentine if u want line of sight, and the mech pios are not free
13 Mar 2019, 12:36 PM
#187
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

i believe the m36 fits better as they have similar dps and pen

while the jp has lower pen and no turret so no don't compare price to it, it's like comparing the okw p4 to the Sherman and saying okw p4 needs to cost less


JP makes up for low pen with good accuracy and spitting out great RoF. Also you forget outside of Pershing and is-2 there's not really anything it can struggle to pen anyway.

Churchill's while they will bounce the odd shot are just big vet sponges for the jp.

Jackson I would say is a poor comparison, it's mobile, not 60 range and the turret doesn't move so slow. I think the firefly has a one armed dwarf cranking the turret, so it fairs a bit better on urban maps than FF or JP
13 Mar 2019, 12:48 PM
#188
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

they nerfed repair speed like 2 patches ago, the command panther is form a commander get valentine if u want line of sight, and the mech pios are not free


5man, hammer, heavy sappers upgrade aren't free either so what's your point? It's entirely compatible to OKW sturms and mech repair.

I use panther here as an example because with the FF tracking if another tank gets a shot off it can track a single shot at 60 range for a few seconds. Which is perfectly ok, but some vehicles like command panther self spotting and can shoot at max range 100% of the time anyway.

So in the grand scheme of things doesn't make hammer worth the 50f and lockout of repair+church.

Please give me your reasons why you think hammer is not a dead tech choice, because I've not seen the likes of Hans pick it in months. This is despite such players building fireflies...
13 Mar 2019, 13:13 PM
#189
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1


Hammer tracking is nice but it's no 55 range LoS like on a command panther. Hammer is dead in current meta for a reason

Comparing a stock ("free" as some would describe it) ability with a expensive doctrinal unit is simply flawed or you simply want to rant about a OKW unit.

FF has stock sight of 45 (360) which is more than some other TDs and CP is quite irrelevant. The hammer tracking is a very good ability that allow long range unit to keep firing on targets even beyond normal sight.



13 Mar 2019, 13:21 PM
#190
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 13:13 PMVipper

Comparing a stock ("free" as some would describe it) ability with a expensive doctrinal unit is simply flawed or you simply want to rant about a OKW unit.


Don't you think this is a little hypocritical of you? You always complain about people making things personal whenever your own motives are questioned.

The Command Panther is relevant: it's a very common unit, and sight advantage is only an advantage when it allows you to outspot the enemy. Does 45 sight vs 40 sight make that much of a difference when the enemy has 55? You're still outranged.
13 Mar 2019, 13:28 PM
#191
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 13:21 PMLago

Don't you think this is a little hypocritical of you? You always complain about people making things personal whenever your own motives are questioned.

Ok I have no intention in turning this debate personal. Since it has taken a non constructive turn I end it from my part.

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Mar 2019, 13:21 PMLago

The Command Panther is relevant: it's a very common unit, and sight advantage is only an advantage when it allows you to outspot the enemy. Does 45 sight vs 40 sight make that much of a difference when the enemy has 55? You're still outranged.

Before closing:
FF performance and CP panther have extremely little relevance.

The majority of units have a sight of 35 not 40 which make the advantage of CP over FF at 10 the same as FF has over other units.

And no C.Panther does not out-ranges FF, it is the FF that out-ranges C.Panther and actually hammer tracking would allow a FF to fire back a C.Panther even without vision.

Have a nice day bye bye.
13 Mar 2019, 13:46 PM
#192
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



JP makes up for low pen with good accuracy and spitting out great RoF. Also you forget outside of Pershing and is-2 there's not really anything it can struggle to pen anyway.

Churchill's while they will bounce the odd shot are just big vet sponges for the jp.

Jackson I would say is a poor comparison, it's mobile, not 60 range and the turret doesn't move so slow. I think the firefly has a one armed dwarf cranking the turret, so it fairs a bit better on urban maps than FF or JP
comet, kv1

jackson has 60 range and ff is mobile too it's just not as fast
13 Mar 2019, 13:50 PM
#193
avatar of Stug life

Posts: 4474



5man, hammer, heavy sappers upgrade aren't free either so what's your point? It's entirely compatible to OKW sturms and mech repair.

I use panther here as an example because with the FF tracking if another tank gets a shot off it can track a single shot at 60 range for a few seconds. Which is perfectly ok, but some vehicles like command panther self spotting and can shoot at max range 100% of the time anyway.

So in the grand scheme of things doesn't make hammer worth the 50f and lockout of repair+church.

Please give me your reasons why you think hammer is not a dead tech choice, because I've not seen the likes of Hans pick it in months. This is despite such players building fireflies...
panther has only 50 range and heavy sapper repair faster than SP
13 Mar 2019, 13:57 PM
#194
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

JP makes up for low pen with good accuracy and spitting out great RoF. Also you forget outside of Pershing and is-2 there's not really anything it can struggle to pen anyway.


Excuse me?

The Jagdpanzer IV has 200/185/170 pen.

Comet has 290 armor.
Churchill has 240 armor.
Churchill AVRE has 290 armor.
Churchill Croc has 290 armor.
KV-2 has 300 armor.
KV-1 has 270 armor.
KV-8 has 260 armor.
ISU-152 has 340 armor.

IS-2 has 375 armor.
Pershing has 300 armor.


There are plenty of heavily armored tanks the Jagdpanzer IV will struggle against.

13 Mar 2019, 13:59 PM
#195
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243



JP makes up for low pen with good accuracy and spitting out great RoF. Also you forget outside of Pershing and is-2 there's not really anything it can struggle to pen anyway.

Churchill's while they will bounce the odd shot are just big vet sponges for the jp.

Jackson I would say is a poor comparison, it's mobile, not 60 range and the turret doesn't move so slow. I think the firefly has a one armed dwarf cranking the turret, so it fairs a bit better on urban maps than FF or JP


1.
- all KWs have high armor/ hp/ dmg reduction
- SU152 have high Armor/ HP
- Churchs have high armor/ HP and arnt this kind of vet sponges for a jp like you think...because of high armor and relative cheap price..so no..it doestn vet fast at a church
- comet have high armor
> all this targets have a good chance to bounces jp shots often

2.
jackson has 60 range
13 Mar 2019, 15:51 PM
#196
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911



I'm of the opinion it performs the same as a jagdpanzer, just the JP comes stock with good DPS and gets defensive vet (17 target size+vet make it a pain to kill even chasing with meds). FF gets offensive vet and lacks DPS but a tiny bit more mobility.


Having defensive vet is only OK, not good. If a tank destroyer is in range, you have kinda messed up. Plus in a vacuum, the JP4s vet 2 bonus doesn't actually do anything against, say a matchup vs A FF anyways.


And I wouldn't call having a turret having a "tiny amount more of mobility"
13 Mar 2019, 15:56 PM
#197
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

Guys, pls buff FF bcos otherwise my beloved UKF is not as OP as OKM

*fails miserably to show OKM being OP*

Best argument ever
13 Mar 2019, 16:57 PM
#198
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 600

Id be happy with an FF buff, if there was a churchill nerf. FF's while maybe not performing as amazing as a Jackson, have the fact that if they are hiding behind a churchill, which has an insane amount of health and armour, is a really hard combo to beat. + the tulips would need a rework, either no damage, or no stun. Imagine if a firefly moved like a jackson and shot like a jackson in addition to tulips? Would be mental.

Also vetted up FF's are still really good, its just vet 0 ones that suck a bit.
14 Mar 2019, 00:40 AM
#199
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

Id love to see sniping scopes on FF. Something like Su-85 when they use that spotting skill. As a tradeoff FF get immobile while using sniping scopes.
14 Mar 2019, 01:13 AM
#200
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

Id love to see sniping scopes on FF. Something like Su-85 when they use that spotting skill. As a tradeoff FF get immobile while using sniping scopes.


Could build a 17 lb would be cheaper. I fear that doing something like that to the FF would make the nest even more dead than it is.
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