M10 tank destroyer (and other stuff) - A different approach

The main issue is still present. Until jackson usf has only softcounters to panzer 4.

All factions but usf (and uk) get a nondoctrinal stopgap at, i don.t see the issue with usf having one

USF have enough tools to deal with P4 but that is irrelevant.

My main point is that M-36 does not need to be able to counter everything from a kubel to KT.

The reason M-10 is not used is not that it is bad unit but that M-36 is so good against everything.

M-10 does not need to buffs (or new abilities it already has 2) since it a very cost efficient vehicle.

One can easily make room for M-10 by lowering the efficiency of M-36 vs mediums.

I am not arguing that USF should not have access to M-10 as stock unit, only in that the M-36 needs to become less effective vs mediums.

the M-36 needs to become less effective vs mediums.

That was the plan, m10 allows to do it without gutting down usf against, let's say, okw panzer 4 spam.

I'm sure USF has a lot of other tools to deal with Panzer 4, but such thingis true for Wehrmacht, that still get the stug.

As long as everything is reasonably priced and has right pop more stock options are only better.

Did you even read it? With this suggestion the Panzer IV will stay exactly like it is now, with the exact same cost and timing. The only thing that would change is that the T4 HQ structure itself can be built earlier so Obers can come out earlier, which is a sensible thing.

well makes more sense gl

I don't get the complaint.
Nothing time and fuel wise wpuld change for OKW panzer 4, except that you need to click a second button. Panzer 4 is still behind 120 fuel of Tier 3 + 4

the 60+fuel has nothing to do with the p4 just with major tech being more costly then CPT and LT combined...

The reason M-10 is not used is not that it is bad unit but that M-36 is so good against everything.

It's not used because:

1- It's no longer a cheesy unit that at vet 0 could crush any infantry squad easily.

2- No longer a call in unit.

The whole point of armor was going LT + Cpt for a strong early/mid game play, and finish it off with M10 to deal with any medium tanks.

This is because the devs didn't leave it as a call in. If they hadn't screwed it up by requiring you to tech to Major and then build it at the Battalion CP it would have a purpose.

It was needed. The problem comes that different factions, have different cost/timing for unlocking their tank tech and/or are less flexible to do so.


OP: i don't think M10 needs to be made a stock unit but i agree with the concept of "mid tier" unlocks which would help with the timings of certain units.

OKW: i've suggested previously for a mid gap between JPIV/Ober and PIV/PV which would also help with other call ins such as Ostwind and Hetzer.

USF: i guess applying the same principle is worth a try. It's no longer "free tech" but not as expensive as of now.

This is because the devs didn't leave it as a call in. If they hadn't screwed it up by requiring you to tech to Major and then build it at the Battalion CP it would have a purpose.

It's tied to Major because if it isn't then you don't have to tech Major if you go Armor. Before DBP that was one of the dominant USF strategies: tech LT and CPT for a full suite of support weapons and both combat officers, then unleash the M10 Horde. They used to be amazing at crushing infantry too.

Did you even read it? With this suggestion the Panzer IV will stay exactly like it is now, with the exact same cost and timing. The only thing that would change is that the T4 HQ structure itself can be built earlier so Obers can come out earlier, which is a sensible thing.

And Jagdpanzer 4, that again can be nerfed in armor, range, and/or soft nerfed in dps like stug if needed.

It will break the bones of the Command Panther meta by giving a solid pre tier 4 anti medium backup that isn't tier locked or an armored car

the 60+fuel has nothing to do with the p4 just with major tech being more costly then CPT and LT combined...

CPT and LT are supposed to be a choice, not a linear teching

Major would give good dedicated units like m10 and m8, 60 fuel means m10 comes at (max) 120 fuel. To access m36 or sherman there's 60 more fuel, so complete Major tier still costs 120 fuel.

Nothing is effectively changing but the timing of m8 motor carriage (for the better)

It's tied to Major because if it isn't then you don't have to tech Major if you go Armor. Before DBP that was one of the dominant USF strategies: tech LT and CPT for a full suite of support weapons and both combat officers, then unleash the M10 Horde. They used to be amazing at crushing infantry too.

So you didn't have to tech to Major? Yeah and...??? The problem was what exactly? Oh right we have to placate OST heer with everything we do because that's the only faction that's supposed to matter. Silly me I keep forgetting.

So you didn't have to tech to Major? Yeah and...??? The problem was what exactly? Oh right we have to placate OST heer with everything we do because that's the only faction that's supposed to matter. Silly me I keep forgetting.

Not teching to Major was incredibly efficient. You could go both Lieutenant and Captain, getting the full suite of tools and both combat officers. You'd also save a ton of fuel in the process, allowing you to rapidly amass critical mass of M10 tank destroyers.

It was so good it choked out the other USF strategies, so the M10, the Flame Hetzer, the Ostwind and the KV-8 got tied to tech in DBP.

Lend Lease's M4C Sherman got tied to tech the patch before that.

OP: i don't think M10 needs to be made a stock unit but i agree with the concept of "mid tier" unlocks which would help with the timings of certain units.

OKW: i've suggested previously for a mid gap between JPIV/Ober and PIV/PV which would also help with other call ins such as Ostwind and Hetzer.

USF: i guess applying the same principle is worth a try. It's no longer "free tech" but not as expensive as of now.

The ostheer type stop gap tier seems to be a solution now, but lets not forget what caused the problem in the first place. And that was the huge increase in cost of tier 3 in all factions aimed to lenghten the LV play. What it really did was cause problems with LVs like T70 and luchs that had to be nerfed in order to keep them ballanced. But they were completely fine before that! And so were the mediums. Yes, shermans did arrive quicker than they do now. But so did stugs that countered them. And because they arrived so quickly, there was a point for them to be in top tier, because even though meds were in the same tier as late game units, they arrived at the time when building late game unit would be simply a mistake. That is how it was ballanced out before.

To sum up, I have a strong feeling that all of this is just trying to change everything in the game to ballance around the fact that a huge mistake has been made and devs don't want to admit that and revert that change. I mean, I know this process is halfway done, yet I think it is important thing to be aware of.

Not teching to Major was incredibly efficient. You could go both Lieutenant and Captain, getting the full suite of tools and both combat officers. You'd also save a ton of fuel in the process, allowing you to rapidly amass critical mass of M10 tank destroyers.

It was so good it choked out the other USF strategies, so the M10, the Flame Hetzer, the Ostwind and the KV-8 got tied to tech in DBP.

Lend Lease's M4C Sherman got tied to tech the patch before that.

Again so what. USF got a full tech tree, plus could amass a cheap and effective AT unit similar to the STUG III, that almost sounds like they'd be on par with OST Heer! Can't have that!

Again so what. USF got a full tech tree, plus could amass a cheap and effective AT unit similar to the STUG III, that almost sounds like they'd be on par with OST Heer! Can't have that!

Ostheer's irrelevant. Call-in Armor Company was choking out all the other USF commanders so they changed it. Same with OKW: Scavenge was the go to when it could just call in Ostwinds.

Mobile Defence bizarrely escaped the axe, but it wasn't a problem back then and they're dealing with it in the upcoming patch.

Replace it in the doctrine with something else.

Then put it in T0 but it only unlocks when you have two Tiers unlocked. So LT+CAPT or LT+Major etc. That way you could unlock it cheaply by teching LT and Captain, however, it would set you back on getting the major and jackson.

In the current balance I would rather have m10 moved to mechanized as call in unit and 76 Sherman to Armor. It also fits themes of the commanders better.

Mechanized doesn't need a light tank destroyer. It's got the M3.

The ostheer type stop gap tier seems to be a solution now, but lets not forget what caused the problem in the first place. And that was the huge increase in cost of tier 3 in all factions aimed to lenghten the LV play. What it really did was cause problems with LVs like T70 and luchs that had to be nerfed in order to keep them ballanced. But they were completely fine before that! And so were the mediums. Yes, shermans did arrive quicker than they do now. But so did stugs that countered them. And because they arrived so quickly, there was a point for them to be in top tier, because even though meds were in the same tier as late game units, they arrived at the time when building late game unit would be simply a mistake. That is how it was ballanced out before.

To sum up, I have a strong feeling that all of this is just trying to change everything in the game to ballance around the fact that a huge mistake has been made and devs don't want to admit that and revert that change. I mean, I know this process is halfway done, yet I think it is important thing to be aware of.

10mins shermans were not healthy for the game. It was also a completely different meta game at that moment and different tech structure. It was not just delaying mediums.

Soviets having to choose from either T1 into T4 or T2 into T3 if you were not skipping for call in tanks. T70 was completely busted, same with first versions of FHT. But that was the case because they had to win you the game or basically wipe squads in the 2/3 minute window they had. After that it was medium/heavy call in spam with engineers.

Luch was not fine, it was part of T4 and never used. OKW didn't had stock PIV and relied more in schreck spam into vet 5 and OP shit like KT. Kubel had suppression and Flak HT had attack ground splash suppression (if you went for mechanized).

USF rushed LT into M20 into Sherman. OH was cannabalized specially in 1v1 where you DIDN'T had a chance in getting a Stug with all the pressure Elite rifleman with flamers had.


Game was not balanced during WFA. Either you played meta or you lost badly. OKW was not balanced for teamgames, USF was not balanced for 1v1 or specially against OH, and maxim spam in 1v1 against OKW.