US BARS

True but these weapon hit the field later having smaller impact and/or have other restriction. Fixing VG STs/Penal SVTs is a more important issue.

And why weapons with such weapon profiles shouldn't be in game?

"Because I think so" is not a valid answer.

Ignoring multiple weapons because they do not support your point is also not valid move.

Don't cling zealously to balance decisions that are no longer present in coh2 for more then 4 years now.

And why weapons with such weapon profiles shouldn't be in game?

"Because I think so" is not a valid answer.

Ignoring multiple weapons because they do not support your point is also not valid move.

Don't cling zealously to balance decisions that are no longer present in coh2 for more then 4 years now.

Suggestions:
1) Read
2) Understand
3) Quote and respond only if you response is relevant to what you have quoted and if you reply is relevant to the thread.

(Now if you bother reading the previous posts you will find the answers to your questions.)
If you want debate small arm fire I also suggested to start a thread about them, since I have no intention of following you in derailing this thread which is about Bars.

Have a nice day.

BARS are ok. If you equip a RM with two of them its 99% sure that at some point they will drop one.
I never had a game or saw a game with double BAR equipped RM that didn't drop them, they always do.
Imo double BAR on a RM is a high risk high reward thing.
You can kick ass but at the same time your ass can kicked too.

volk stg44 = free to unlock, never drop, 60muni 2stg

rifleman BAR = 150mp 15fuel to unlock, can be drop, 60muni 1 BAR

BAR is not OP, OKW weabooo

Even, BAR far accuracy is so low

If we are comparing them to Volks do not forget that Riflemen have much better veterancy bonusses that also play a part in the BARs' performance.

Do you really feel the BARs' moving performance is an issue though? Considering volks, for example, lose ~60% of their DPS while moving, a 50% DPS loss for moving bars isn't all that absurd. Most weapons that are intended to have good moving performance see a 40-50% DPS loss.

As for G43s, I'd argue that the tactical decision isn't in how you use G43s, but in deciding which upgrade to get. It's a choice between moving performance/close range damage and long range damage. Nerfing the moving performance of G43s to the same level as most other weapons waters down that choice to close range damage or long range damage. In my opinion, that actually removes a tactical decision and makes the dynamic between those weapon upgrades less interesting.

Yes it's an issue. When you chase with StG volks or Kar98 grens you have to make the decision to either chase and get more shots in or remain stationary to maximize accuracy. With BARs and G43s there is no decision, you chase everytime because you sacrifice basically nothing.

When you say "40%-50% DPS loss" are you factoring in the rest of the squad? Or just the 2 models with BARs? Because you would see a 40% DPS loss from rifles with 2x BARs if they were still 5 man.

Yes I like the tactical decision of G43s vs the LMG42, but it doesn't make the moving accuracy being nonexistant ok. G43s are a close range weapon and the LMG42 is the opposite. That should be enough justification to select one over the other.

And why weapons with such weapon profiles shouldn't be in game?

"Because I think so" is not a valid answer.

Ignoring multiple weapons because they do not support your point is also not valid move.

Don't cling zealously to balance decisions that are no longer present in coh2 for more then 4 years now.

Timing and cost also play a factor.
Relative positioning is a good design idea that was thrown away the same time most good design ideas were--when WFA was released.
However I see little fault in limited doctrinal options being better than the non limited non doc ones. For example say the m1919 and BAR were swapped. You pay 70mu for a 1 at a time weapon that changes rifles from aggressor to defender, the BAR being doctrinal but unchanged remains attractive in that it can be double armed (or mixed and matched) as well as enforcing their mobility. Similarly the mp40 vs stg for volks. Ooooo smoke and a small rec acc buff in exchange for long range firepower AND have to give up the lava nade? It's like having the DSHK doctrinal and a call in Maxim..the Axis examples you gave have their own drawbacks- spec ops is a doctrine with only 4 slots, falls is a tough one to master the balance of MP and muni strain the OKW doesn't usually have to deal with. Fussies is boring to play (OK not the best argument but it's got its own problems).
G43s offer a role change on squishy infantry. Stgs/BARs raise the threshold without changing anything else.
Penals transition form beating the shit out of anything they look at to slapping away light armour/nuking slowed armour. No Brainer transitions are bad design. Give us some dynamics some PROPER choice

If we are comparing them to Volks do not forget that Riflemen have much better veterancy bonusses that also play a part in the BARs' performance.

Riflemen do not have better veterancy bonusses now. They do not receive any evasive bonus until vet 3, (Volks receive evasive bonus in vet2 and vet3) making it worse for them to use BARs.

Volksgrenadiers
Vet 1: -10% received accuracy
Vet 2: +30% accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
Vet 3: -14% received accuracy

Rifles:
Vet 1: AT grenade ability
Vet 2: -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
Vet 3: -15% received accuracy, +30% accuracy, -50% ability recharge time, +25% grenade range.

Rifles can also get a +10% veterancy gain bulletin.

That early 10% does make a difference, Rifles have higher scaling with higher investment, but to get there you need to get seal clubbed by OKW for quite sometime. No should deny the fact Riflemen are strong, with veterancy, grenades and 2 BARs, the issue is getting there because OKW has better early game, better light vehicles now and access to MG and ATG all the time.

Yes it's an issue. When you chase with StG volks or Kar98 grens you have to make the decision to either chase and get more shots in or remain stationary to maximize accuracy. With BARs and G43s there is no decision, you chase everytime because you sacrifice basically nothing.

The more or less accepted answer is to always chase with smgs/bars/garands and to never chase wirh rifles. Theres no decision really. For each weapon, one choice is basically strictly better than the other.

BARs are completely fin, don't think they overperform.

The only thing you can say is, that US can spam them with some luck... only Panzerwerfer can fix. xD

The more or less accepted answer is to always chase with smgs/bars/garands and to never chase wirh rifles. Theres no decision really. For each weapon, one choice is basically strictly better than the other.

I'd say that answer is who you ask. I know top players who don't even remotely know stats of the game or outcomes, and just know the game through experience and win through strong micro. On the other side you have players who know a ton of stats that run the game and can therefore make the best decisions of situations, and have decent micro that allow them to be top players.

Different ways of being successful, all depends on who you ask.

I'd say that answer is who you ask. I know top players who don't even remotely know stats of the game or outcomes, and just know the game through experience and win through strong micro. On the other side you have players who know a ton of stats that run the game and can therefore make the best decisions of situations, and have decent micro that allow them to be top players.

Different ways of being successful, all depends on who you ask.

That's sidestepping the point.
Against a retreating target: Rifles are better not moving; moving while using a rifle is suboptimal. Moving while using smgs/bars is better; standing still while using them is suboptimal.

You're making it seem like there's an element of choice when there is an objectively right and wrong answer for each weapon. Sure, sight lines and cover along the retreat path change the decision making, but that applies to all weapons. Chasing or not chasing with a rifle is not a more interesting decision to make than chasing or not chasing with a BAR.

Volksgrenadiers
Vet 1: -10% received accuracy
Vet 2: +30% accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
Vet 3: -14% received accuracy

Rifles:
Vet 1: AT grenade ability
Vet 2: -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
Vet 3: -15% received accuracy, +30% accuracy, -50% ability recharge time, +25% grenade range.

Rifles can also get a +10% veterancy gain bulletin.

Sorry for my not checking the data again before post

Came back to the game after a break to find its in pretty good balance, except for one big issue. BARS. They are way too strong for what they are, destroying all axis inf. I'm making this thread for two reasons:

1. Whats your guys opinions on bars? and how would you balance them if at all.

2. What are your recommendations for dealing with double bar death squads?

1. They are completely fine. Riflemen suffer in early game, but this compensates for their strong late game, where they become lethal killing machines. BAR is very expensive to equip (i really don't see a reason to lower the cost of it) but it boosts Rifle's lethality. 60 munitions for a single weapons is too much, but again, there's no need to lower the price.

2. Fallschrimjager, but expect USF to go Rangers or Paratroopers and shred your special forces and your troops into pieces.

Bars are fine if overpowered so is stgs for 250 mp volks with field upgrade and no research for them plus never drop

^this

Against a retreating target: Rifles are better not moving; moving while using a rifle is suboptimal. Moving while using smgs/bars is better; standing still while using them is suboptimal.

Who or what decides this? M1 garand moving accuracy is 0.6 and given that you get around 2x time of shooting compared to not moving it gives you more on target shots and accurate shots overall with this rifle. G43 at 0.8 is even worse. Tommies at 0.35 you never chase with because you have no chance to hit.

I think at most, BARs could stand a reduction in far range accuracy of about 10-15%. Maybe.

But veterancy is where rifles with BARs are powerful, not necessarily with BARs independently.

None of the veterancy in CoH2 has ever been well balanced, or designed for that matter.

There's also cooldown (and burst for other type of weapons) into the mix. But Rifles have a weapon closer to a carbine rather than a bolt action damage profile, still you are losing 45% of DPS (thx Cruzzi, you can check it by double clicking an infantry squad to show moving dps). But he already said that you should chase with Garands but then you said not so with "Rifles" so...

STG Volks i'll bet you should chase cause i think the STG overcomes the Kar98.

The only time you would think of not chasing is if you want to capture a point or stay in cover. Unless you are an IS or you have a weapon which can't fire on the move, you are generally better chasing as you can land more shots, avoid LoS blockers and stay in optimal range DPS.
Note: you don't chase if the squad is coming towards you. Only after they leave your position you start chasing and you might as well stop when nearing your max range.

Honestly, for an "optimal" decision, you would had to run a test on which you see how many more shots a bolt action unit chasing would be able to land and at what distance they are doing so.

For ex: say 2 conscripts squad start shooting at 0 range. Then one stay still (A) and the other starts to chase (B).
-Say A only is able to shoot 1 once more at 20 range and B manage to shoot twice at 15/30. Theorical DPS says A is able to do more dmg on avg.
-Same scenario but B fires 3 shots at 11/22/33. B does more dmb.
-Same as first scenario, but B stops to fire it's last volley at range 35. B does more dmg.

There's also the fact that you could "high roll RNG" while chasing squads.

I think at most, BARs could stand a reduction in far range accuracy of about 10-15%. Maybe.

But veterancy is where rifles with BARs are powerful, not necessarily with BARs independently.

None of the veterancy in CoH2 has ever been well balanced, or designed for that matter.

My opinion from like 2 years ago, same principle.

You could put more emphasis on reducing the long range DPS on some of the AR to differentiate them from LMGs. At first this should apply to BAR. Once some QoL changes are done to OKW, squad formation and unit call in, i could see the same treatment apply to IR STG and maybe FG42.

Reduce DPS from range 25-35 from (6.03/5.17/4.37) to something around (5/4/3)

Gren + LMG42 at (25-35): 17.99/17.03/15.98
Rifle + 2xBar at (25-35): 19.08/16.25/13.75
New Rifle 2xBar at (25-35): 17.02/13.91/11.01

If LMGs are limited to 1 from rack pick, i wouldn't mind BAR + 1919 as this requires teching and shouldn't be as effective with the new weapon profile (you are mixing a weapon which is better at close range and on the move vs something which needs to be static and at range).

Obviously numbers might be off.