Jackson Overperforming

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 10:56 AMStug life

before changes jackson would lose a 1 vs 1 vs p4 (at 45 range) thanks to faster realod and hp but would deal with it well at range now it does both and has no real counter strategy other than cath it off guard (faster than PG and at guns), u can compare it to the jp4: one only counter medium armor can be flanked has limited vision and is slow so a sole t 34 can kill it alone, not the same can be said for the jackson

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 12:43 PMGI John 412

Obviously there would be many stat changes to the M10 as well as teching price and building price adjustments. No shit just adding it to Captain tech would be OP.

Right now the M10 is more or less pointless being a doctrinal TD, tied to Major tech that is worse in pretty much every way compared to the Jackson.

A rework to make the M10 counter light vehicles and medium tanks while being tied to a lower tech (or multiple lower techs, such as building it from the Captain building but only once you’ve also bought the Lieutenant.)

This would allow the Jackson to become a TD that counters heavy tanks (high penetration and damage but a low rate of fire and long range) while the M10 has higher health, shorter range, less penetration but a higher rate of fire and better speed to allow it to out DPS a medium tank but not penetrate a heavy well enough to reliably counter it. Thus, Jackson doesn’t need to counter everything and Jackson and M10 can be counters with vehicle play if you pick the right type, without crippling US lategame.

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 14:55 PMStug life

old sight range jackson

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 12:43 PMGI John 412

Obviously there would be many stat changes to the M10 as well as teching price and building price adjustments. No shit just adding it to Captain tech would be OP.

Right now the M10 is more or less pointless being a doctrinal TD, tied to Major tech that is worse in pretty much every way compared to the Jackson.

A rework to make the M10 counter light vehicles and medium tanks while being tied to a lower tech (or multiple lower techs, such as building it from the Captain building but only once you’ve also bought the Lieutenant.)

This would allow the Jackson to become a TD that counters heavy tanks (high penetration and damage but a low rate of fire and long range) while the M10 has higher health, shorter range, less penetration but a higher rate of fire and better speed to allow it to out DPS a medium tank but not penetrate a heavy well enough to reliably counter it. Thus, Jackson doesn’t need to counter everything and Jackson and M10 can be counters with vehicle play if you pick the right type, without crippling US lategame.

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 15:31 PMsherlock

His point was that the p4 cannot and never did shoot past 40 range, therefore it would be impossible for the p4 to win any engagement at a range of 45. Not sure if the old jackson sight range increased p4 range, but I highly doubt it

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 15:48 PMStug life

by 45 i meant the starting fight range if i said 60 would u think that p4 had 60 range ? 45 would be the range where jackson could shoot first but still lose thanks to the high reload and the uselss 200 damage vs medium (at 60 jackson could win if all hit ty to the 2 extra shoot)
btw all this is behind the point ( that jackson still counter the p4 and now is much safer and faster in doing so)

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 16:07 PMsherlock

I completely agree with the statement, if there is another unit spotting for the jackson, but then the "old jackson sight range" has pretty much nothing to do with it since the jackson had 35, then 40 and now again 35 sight range. You need another unit to spot and then I 100% agree.

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 16:22 PMVipper

JUNE 21st BALANCE UPDATE (2016)
M36 Jackson

Developer Comments: Increased LOS to allow the M36 to better kite, locate and hunt enemy armor without boosting its firepower any further.

LOS from 35 to 40
Tank acceleration increased from 2.5 to 3
Veterancy 2 sight radius bonus changed from 30% to add 5

total sight for vet 2 M36 45 pre-patch, a bit more with bulletin.

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 14:27 PMShadowLinkX37

100/120/140

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 16:26 PMsherlock

...

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 15:22 PMLoopDloop

There’s this really cool thing called the panzerfaust. There’s another really cool thing called a mine. A lot of people seem to forget that sometimes it takes more than one unit to counter another unit. If the panther with much more armor and blitzkrieg is killable then so is the jackson.

How would you propose making it effective against mediums without completely destroying vehicles like the 222 and luchs though? Because if it’s able to do anything against mediums it would completely trash a poor 222 that it would hit the field like 1 minute after.

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 19:37 PMGI John 412

I understand that it requires a significant change to US teching and if done poorly it could result in how SU-76s used to be.

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 19:37 PMGI John 412

....

Basically I think the M10 and Jackson should function similar to how the SU-76 and SU-85 interact. One is a light/medium counter that is available earlier, but can’t effectively fight late game heavy tanks, and the other is a late game heavy tank destroyer that has the power and range to tackle Heavy tanks, but is more expensive and has a lower rate of fire that keeps it from being superior in every way. This should promote a mix of units if done well.
...

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 20:13 PMGI John 412

Yes, firefly and Jackson both can fight all types of vehicles because they are the USF and UKF sole TD that is non doctrinal.

StuG is also the Whers only actual TD. The Panther is sort of a TD/Heavy tank/Medium tank hybrid.

And yes, SU-76s can fight heavies in the late game in massed numbers, but they aren’t designed to do that. They should receive a slight penetration nerf in order to resolidify their role as a light/medium counter.

The comparison is in theory what the units are supposed to do, not an example of how that theory is being implemented currently.

Because, yeah, SU-76 is kinda OP and SU-85 is kinda meh. Lol

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 19:37 PMGI John 412

Adjusting costs and timing.

You’re right. An M10 would absolutely wreck a 222 or Panzer II, and it should. But it would be possible to adjust the cost of the M10 in order to make it come late enough that light vehicles would still have a window of opportunity.

Basically I think the M10 and Jackson should function similar to how the SU-76 and SU-85 interact. One is a light/medium counter that is available earlier, but can’t effectively fight late game heavy tanks, and the other is a late game heavy tank destroyer that has the power and range to tackle Heavy tanks, but is more expensive and has a lower rate of fire that keeps it from being superior in every way. This should promote a mix of units if done well.

I understand that it requires a significant change to US teching and if done poorly it could result in how SU-76s used to be.

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 06:35 AMLeOverlord

How much HP does the Jackson have?

Jump back to quoted post23 May 2018, 07:36 AMzarok47

All great and dandy, but a high micro lategame tank is too much to handle for the average player (and quite alot of "top" players too) so that is why the jackson got it's hp buff.

So instead of focusing what went wrong, try to focus on how to fix it. Which is, as you stated, giving the jackson the same weakness as the firefly: slow speed and maybe slower turret rotation.



Sounds like a fun challenge, I'll do it for our next 2vs2 game.