The whole idea behind the flame nade change is to hurt OKW early game because they're obviously too strong in the opening 3-5 minutes. The problem is and its one I tried to put across in the balance team but people disagreed with me, it doesn't really hurt their early game in any meaningful way. All it does is lead to more frustrating gameplay like you see with USF and Brits to a lesser extent, not having access to an actual building counter because you dont have access to flames.
Curious if people would agree that putting some of sturms vet 0 damage to vet 1 or increasing Volk build time by 8-10 seconds are better ways to nerf the opening 5 minutes without leading to the "oh theres a building on that side of the map, i have to ignore it for 5 minutes". Because the flame nade changes really doesnt actually do anything to solve OKW's snowball vs USF and now Brits.
SBP Change Notes
19 May 2018, 07:05 AM
#41
Posts: 471 | Subs: 1
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19 May 2018, 07:26 AM
#42
Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1
The whole idea behind the flame nade change is to hurt OKW early game because they're obviously too strong in the opening 3-5 minutes. The problem is and its one I tried to put across in the balance team but people disagreed with me, it doesn't really hurt their early game in any meaningful way. All it does is lead to more frustrating gameplay like you see with USF and Brits to a lesser extent, not having access to an actual building counter because you dont have access to flames.
Curious if people would agree that putting some of sturms vet 0 damage to vet 1 or increasing Volk build time by 8-10 seconds are better ways to nerf the opening 5 minutes without leading to the "oh theres a building on that side of the map, i have to ignore it for 5 minutes". Because the flame nade changes really doesnt actually do anything to solve OKW's snowball vs USF and now Brits.
This is a really good post!
Honestly I know how Sturm is already an overloaded unit but they should be the one having the flamnade. Flamnade that early (no truck requirement) would not be an issue if you know from where it is coming, if you know you can counter it by forcing Sturm to retreat (same as for any other flamer in fact). A big part of the issue at the moment is OKW having 3 early units that can potencially use it against you.
Reducing Sturm vet0 damage or increasing volks building time are good ideas to reduce OKW early dominance, I think all of that should be tested.
Last but not least, what scare me the most from your post is people from the balance team disagreeing with you about this problem. Like what, the situation was fine for them?
19 May 2018, 07:32 AM
#43
Posts: 471 | Subs: 1
Last but not least, what scare me the most from your post is people from the balance team disagreeing with you about this problem. Like what, the situation was fine for them?
Different means to an end rather than disagreeing
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19 May 2018, 10:53 AM
#44
Posts: 3260
A counterargument to that is that the flamenade doubles as a very fast, powerful cover denier. If OKW doesn't have it then they struggle with early buildings, if they do they can use it to swing the first fight anywhere on the map.
Locking it behind the truck means OKW doesn't have that flamenade for the first fight and that they call the truck in as soon as possible, slowing their T0 by 100 manpower.
Leaving it be and weakening OKW T0 in other ways means you're balancing around OKW pulling off an impactful flame grenade in the first fight, making it more important to that initial engagement, not less.
Locking it behind the truck means OKW doesn't have that flamenade for the first fight and that they call the truck in as soon as possible, slowing their T0 by 100 manpower.
Leaving it be and weakening OKW T0 in other ways means you're balancing around OKW pulling off an impactful flame grenade in the first fight, making it more important to that initial engagement, not less.
19 May 2018, 11:48 AM
#45
Posts: 471 | Subs: 1
A counterargument to that is that the flamenade doubles as a very fast, powerful cover denier. If OKW doesn't have it then they struggle with early buildings, if they do they can use it to swing the first fight anywhere on the map.
Locking it behind the truck means OKW doesn't have that flamenade for the first fight and that they call the truck in as soon as possible, slowing their T0 by 100 manpower.
Leaving it be and weakening OKW T0 in other ways means you're balancing around OKW pulling off an impactful flame grenade in the first fight, making it more important to that initial engagement, not less.
Flame nade very really has any impact on the opening few engagements unless its a unit closing in on a volk, pretty rare a closing in squad beats a volk at vet 0 with or without a flame nade.
It's almost always a flanking sturm with a bunch of volks sat at long range that kick starts a snowball. Moving sturms damage or slowing down how fast OKW cap early game stops their snowball, it doesnt make their early game bad it just puts it in line with every other faction in the game
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19 May 2018, 13:40 PM
#46
Posts: 808
Does someone really have to explain why you can’t compare Molotovs to flamenades?
It’s like saying what’s the difference between mp40s and stg44s? They both shoot bullets kinda fast so they must be the same.
YES YOU CAN COMPARE how deluded are you??, they both do the same god damn thing, both counter buildings and deny cover and do the SAME DOT DAMAGE. Molotovs u can tech with if u need it fast, have a longer throw time, but its cheaper in munitions to use whilst OKW has a faster throw time but has higher munition cost finished.
Fine, give it also a longer throw time and reduce its munition cost, guaranteed cry babies like you will still bitch about it
The whole idea behind the flame nade change is to hurt OKW early game because they're obviously too strong in the opening 3-5 minutes. The problem is and its one I tried to put across in the balance team but people disagreed with me, it doesn't really hurt their early game in any meaningful way. All it does is lead to more frustrating gameplay like you see with USF and Brits to a lesser extent, not having access to an actual building counter because you dont have access to flames.
Curious if people would agree that putting some of sturms vet 0 damage to vet 1 or increasing Volk build time by 8-10 seconds are better ways to nerf the opening 5 minutes without leading to the "oh theres a building on that side of the map, i have to ignore it for 5 minutes". Because the flame nade changes really doesnt actually do anything to solve OKW's snowball vs USF and now Brits.
wtf did i just read? USF dont have a building counter? what is the mortor for in t0? sounds to me your just spamming rifles and heading straight to occupied buildings, clearly this is a l2p issue. didn't know only OKW is aloud to occupy buildings, are you somehow being refused entry? u wna nerf volks and sturms lol, rifles absolutely shit all over volks in engagements and sturms can only win if they catch them off guard in cqc
19 May 2018, 14:15 PM
#47
Posts: 471 | Subs: 1
YES YOU CAN COMPARE how deluded are you??, they both do the same god damn thing, both counter buildings and deny cover and do the SAME DOT DAMAGE. Molotovs u can tech with if u need it fast, have a longer throw time, but its cheaper in munitions to use whilst OKW has a faster throw time but has higher munition cost finished.
Fine, give it also a longer throw time and reduce its munition cost, guaranteed cry babies like you will still bitch about it
wtf did i just read? USF dont have a building counter? what is the mortor for in t0? sounds to me your just spamming rifles and heading straight to occupied buildings, clearly this is a l2p issue. didn't know only OKW is aloud to occupy buildings, are you somehow being refused entry? u wna nerf volks and sturms lol, rifles absolutely shit all over volks in engagements and sturms can only win if they catch them off guard in cqc
Seek help
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19 May 2018, 14:46 PM
#48
Posts: 808
Seek help
if that's the only response u can muster, makes sense i guess
19 May 2018, 14:58 PM
#49
Posts: 471 | Subs: 1
if that's the only response u can muster, makes sense i guess
Well ur a nub and i'm god so dont tell me l2p mister, very rude
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19 May 2018, 15:00 PM
#50
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
wtf did i just read? USF dont have a building counter? what is the mortor for in t0? sounds to me your just spamming rifles and heading straight to occupied buildings, clearly this is a l2p issue. didn't know only OKW is aloud to occupy buildings, are you somehow being refused entry? u wna nerf volks and sturms lol, rifles absolutely shit all over volks in engagements and sturms can only win if they catch them off guard in cqc
Did....
Did you just told top 10 player to L2P?
Well, which of top 3 players are you then?
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
19 May 2018, 16:27 PM
#51
Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1
What.
Volks consistently beat Rifles all the way into the lategame where they enter the matrix and get double BARs, they get their upgrades much sooner and can afford them due to map control as well as being able to build cover while being much cheaper, seek help is truly the only advice you can give to people who don't see OKW vs USF early game is basically *Seal Clubbing*.
Volks consistently beat Rifles all the way into the lategame where they enter the matrix and get double BARs, they get their upgrades much sooner and can afford them due to map control as well as being able to build cover while being much cheaper, seek help is truly the only advice you can give to people who don't see OKW vs USF early game is basically *Seal Clubbing*.
19 May 2018, 17:09 PM
#52
Posts: 5279
What about:
2 sturms get mp40s
Knock ~50mp off their price due to initial reduction in power (allows them to be replaced easier and lessens the burden of their many many jobs)
Make the other STGs either returned at vet 1 and no other changes or a muni upgrade that's exclusive with the other upgrades but gives them a target size reduction, something befitting an assault unit, something like Tommys and panzer grens 0.8 RA.
Move the flame nade to them and have it availible as soon as the munitions are had- no tech or anything.
2 sturms get mp40s
Knock ~50mp off their price due to initial reduction in power (allows them to be replaced easier and lessens the burden of their many many jobs)
Make the other STGs either returned at vet 1 and no other changes or a muni upgrade that's exclusive with the other upgrades but gives them a target size reduction, something befitting an assault unit, something like Tommys and panzer grens 0.8 RA.
Move the flame nade to them and have it availible as soon as the munitions are had- no tech or anything.
#stalinwept
19 May 2018, 17:31 PM
#53
4 Posts: 141
Volks will always be a pain in the ass to balance. Even before the vet nerfs, just a quick overview of their abilities makes them the BEST base infantry in the game. They get the hotly debated flame grenade. They can upgrade their weapons. They even have a snare. On top of that, they build green cover. A truly interesting change would be to remove their ability to build sandbags. Or just let all the base infantry build them for all factions. Cover dictates so much of the early game, or the whole game for that matter, that it might be the most interesting to fiddle with.
Just a thought. For now, balancing volks is always going to be a challenge given their broad utility and effectiveness at every stage of the game.
Just a thought. For now, balancing volks is always going to be a challenge given their broad utility and effectiveness at every stage of the game.
19 May 2018, 17:45 PM
#54
Posts: 808
Did....
Did you just told top 10 player to L2P?
Well, which of top 3 players are you then?
out of how many 1v1 players? barely anyone play this god damn game and most people play team games my mum can get into the top 20 if she played 1v1 coh2 every day
What.
Volks consistently beat Rifles all the way into the lategame where they enter the matrix and get double BARs, they get their upgrades much sooner and can afford them due to map control as well as being able to build cover while being much cheaper, seek help is truly the only advice you can give to people who don't see OKW vs USF early game is basically *Seal Clubbing*.
volks consistently beat rifles? are you having a laugh?
19 May 2018, 17:59 PM
#55
Posts: 1930
A counterargument to that is that the flamenade doubles as a very fast, powerful cover denier. If OKW doesn't have it then they struggle with early buildings, if they do they can use it to swing the first fight anywhere on the map.
Locking it behind the truck means OKW doesn't have that flamenade for the first fight and that they call the truck in as soon as possible, slowing their T0 by 100 manpower.
Leaving it be and weakening OKW T0 in other ways means you're balancing around OKW pulling off an impactful flame grenade in the first fight, making it more important to that initial engagement, not less.
the okw get the most powerful unit at the start (arguably tied with tommies) and can get to capping right away.
Usually it's the other faction that have to remove sturm from building, not the other way around.
USF, OKW, and British shouldn't really get garrison counterearly in t0. Their starting unit and tech means they can head for the all important building right from the start.
The wehr are usually stuck spending the first 20 second building the barrack. Soviet conscript rush hasn't been that good for a while.
19 May 2018, 18:17 PM
#56
Posts: 3260
Volks will always be a pain in the ass to balance. Even before the vet nerfs, just a quick overview of their abilities makes them the BEST base infantry in the game. They get the hotly debated flame grenade. They can upgrade their weapons. They even have a snare. On top of that, they build green cover. A truly interesting change would be to remove their ability to build sandbags. Or just let all the base infantry build them for all factions. Cover dictates so much of the early game, or the whole game for that matter, that it might be the most interesting to fiddle with.
Just a thought. For now, balancing volks is always going to be a challenge given their broad utility and effectiveness at every stage of the game.
Volkbags being moved to the Sturmpioneer's building menu could be interesting. Personally I'd like to see everything shuffled around a bit to get rid of STGs and possibly lavanades entirely.
For example:
- Assault Packages in Feuersturm replaced with Panzerfusiliers.
- Sturmpioneers gain the Feuersturm flamethrower upgrade as a stock option.
- Repair boost moved from Panzershreck to minesweeper.
- Sturmpioneers can upgrade minesweepers even when upgraded with a flamethrower or panzershreck.
- Volksgrenadier flame grenades are replaced by the MP40 package's standard grenade.
- Volksgrenadier STGs replaced with MP40s. This upgrade also gives them a closing tool such as the smoke grenade or Sprint.
No more lavanade, but OKW still gets a garrison clearing tool. No more good at all ranges STG upgrade: Volksgrenadiers now transition to CQC in the late game, replacing Sturmpioneers. They are replaced in the long range role by Obersoldaten.
19 May 2018, 18:27 PM
#57
Posts: 1323 | Subs: 1
the okw get the most powerful unit at the start (arguably tied with tommies) and can get to capping right away.
Usually it's the other faction that have to remove sturm from building, not the other way around.
USF, OKW, and British shouldn't really get garrison counterearly in t0. Their starting unit and tech means they can head for the all important building right from the start.
The wehr are usually stuck spending the first 20 second building the barrack. Soviet conscript rush hasn't been that good for a while.
But USF starts with Rear Echelons...
19 May 2018, 18:45 PM
#58
Posts: 495 | Subs: 1
Move the flame grenade to the Sturm pios and give volks a regular model 24 stick grenade. The end result would be bills that still have a way to fight cover, but isn’t as potent as a flame grenade and OKW now has one dedicated flame unit like the other faction.
End result: OKW has a single flame weapon unit tied to their engineer unit like the other faction and they have a grenade on their mainline infantry like the other factions. This makes OKW early game slightly weaker to counter by cover and buildings, which encourages positional play, without changing unit stats, timings or scaling.
It would also retain factional differences in the how a flame weapon is implemented, but standardize that engineer units are the dedicated flame weapon users and building clearing infantry. Other counters to static play still apply.
End result: OKW has a single flame weapon unit tied to their engineer unit like the other faction and they have a grenade on their mainline infantry like the other factions. This makes OKW early game slightly weaker to counter by cover and buildings, which encourages positional play, without changing unit stats, timings or scaling.
It would also retain factional differences in the how a flame weapon is implemented, but standardize that engineer units are the dedicated flame weapon users and building clearing infantry. Other counters to static play still apply.
“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem.” ― Ronald Reagan
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
19 May 2018, 18:48 PM
#59
Posts: 495 | Subs: 1
Volkbags being moved to the Sturmpioneer's building menu could be interesting. Personally I'd like to see everything shuffled around a bit to get rid of STGs and possibly lavanades entirely.
For example:
- Assault Packages in Feuersturm replaced with Panzerfusiliers.
- Sturmpioneers gain the Feuersturm flamethrower upgrade as a stock option.
- Repair boost moved from Panzershreck to minesweeper.
- Sturmpioneers can upgrade minesweepers even when upgraded with a flamethrower or panzershreck.
- Volksgrenadier flame grenades are replaced by the MP40 package's standard grenade.
- Volksgrenadier STGs replaced with MP40s. This upgrade also gives them a closing tool such as the smoke grenade or Sprint.
No more lavanade, but OKW still gets a garrison clearing tool. No more good at all ranges STG upgrade: Volksgrenadiers now transition to CQC in the late game, replacing Sturmpioneers. They are replaced in the long range role by Obersoldaten.
I feel like that would be too similar to other factions. Yet another engineer unit with a flamethrower. Putting it on the already powerful Sturms could be very OP as well. Just give the flame grenade to the Sturms and a regular grenade to Volks.
“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem.” ― Ronald Reagan
Semper Fi
Semper Fi
19 May 2018, 18:49 PM
#60
Posts: 1930
But USF starts with Rear Echelons...
they still don't need to build anything at zero minute, and against the wehr the rear echelon is good enough.
the old smoke + nade combo was honestly good enough for the Rifleman to contest the field in the early game. The rifleman are the best close quarter line infantry and work well with smoke.
the addition of the t0 mortar and the removal of smoke is one of the greatest mistake made to the game.
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