Anti-Air disparities
Posts: 627
In contrast, Germans have 5 sources of AA. The MG42 on a StuG. The MG42 on a PzIV. The MG42 on a Panther. The MG42 on a Tiger. The Ostwind. I also believe the vanilla Scout Car can work as AA, but I've not had one survive long enough to see. So that makes 6 sources. All of these kill aircraft almost instantly. In fact, my MG42 mount kill aircraft so fast the only thing I notice is the plane crashing into my units and killing everything.
Anyhow, there's an extremely obvious disparity here. Germans have 5 different anti-air sources, at least one of which is guaranteed to make a show in any given game, as a supplemental upgrade to a tank. It will kill any aircraft that make a pass, more or less instantly.
The Quad Cannon take so long, abilities can sometimes run their full course when you have it on the field. As the soul source of anti-air, the fact its on a very vulnerable platform, and the fact it has 4 massive guns not make it more in line with German's AA?
Posts: 168
4 "massive" guns are actually .50 calibre (12.7mm) which has less firepower than a P51 mustang's 6 X .50 cals.
Compare this to a 37mm of the ostwind or the 20mm of the scout car you can catch my drift.
But Soviets do get some AA later on like the DsHk on the ISU's and the IS2's
Posts: 72
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Posts: 379
Seems like what you are really observing is a weakness in Soviet AA specifically. Quad does a good job. Perhaps there could be something else but it's workable the way it is.
Plus all Plane strikes are doctrine specific and you definitely don't want a situation where it's like "oh he got a quad, now all my strikes are useless cause it will just shoot them down".
Posts: 627
I'm not exactly arguing for buffs or nerfs, I'm just stating that there is a confusing difference between the AA functionality that isn't really consistent. If anything I'd look for a buff to the Quad and a nerf to the other AA types. Taking so long that a planes can still complete a load of runs without going down is stupid, but going so fast that planes are totally nullified is just as bad.
Posts: 245
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Posts: 245
Posts: 627
Cyridius, did you miss where peter explained how AA actually works in a mechanics sense? Each shot has a certain small percentage of bringing down a plane. Planes don't have hitpoints, they don't take cumulative damage. They are balanced based on how many shots are fired. An Ostwind has a higher per-shot chance of bringing down a plane and a Quad has a smaller per-shot chance. It's balanced by the Ostwind firing fewer shots per barrage than the M5. Pintel-mounted MGs have yet a smaller chance because that is not their main function.
I must just be ridiculously lucky with my mounted MGs then. It's almost instant every single time I've faced a plane with my MG42.
Posts: 267 | Subs: 8
The Ostwind has slightly better AA than the Quad, they both should take down planes at a reasonable rate to one another in either event.
Posts: 531
does the 2cm cannon on the scout car work as AA?
you'd think it'd be pretty good
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedSeems Ostwind slightly better than M5 AA, which makes sense at cost.
(Pintles at <1% are negigible and ost munis.)
There is however an outstanding glaring disparity in:
Sov=
- ZiS Barrage
- Su76 Barrage
- Katyusha
- 82mm Mortar
(- Doctrinal 120mm mortar)
Ost=
- Panzerwerfer
- 81mm Mortar
(- Doctrinal Mortar HT)
Posts: 2181
So, issue resolved. AA is roughly equivalent.
Seems Ostwind slightly better than M5 AA, which makes sense at cost.
(Pintles at <1% are negigible and ost munis.)
There is however an outstanding glaring disparity in:
Sov=
- ZiS Barrage
- Su76 Barrage
- Katyusha
- 82mm Mortar
(- Doctrinal 120mm mortar)
Ost=
- Panzerwerfer
- 81mm Mortar
(- Doctrinal Mortar HT)
Ill finally bite
T2/T4 for Sovjets is rarely seen as you dont have good anti infantry capabilites. This leaves most games where you have 2 options of indirect fire as Sovjet.
German indirect fire is superior to sovjet in rof and ability cooldown.
What about rifle nade, thats indirect fire right? with good range.
Sorry for being a "fanboy" and you probably "don't care"
Posts: 531
Ah you came up with a new "witty" insult I see
no, mate i'm sorry to say he's right, you literally said nothing useful
Posts: 2425
Permanently BannedYour tier argument was irrelevant, because overall, Ost still has less, regardless of tier selection.
Your "rarely seen" argument was irrelevant, because its subjective.
Your German Panzerwerfer/Mortar/Howitzer "indirect" fire rate of fire and cooldowns argument was irrelevant, because it is accounted for commensurately by Sov alternatives having asymmetric equivalence in terms of more damage and AoE.
Your argument of RNade as an indirect fire option is irrelevant because a Molotov can also be thrown indirectly, and furthermore is asymmetrically balanced due to no minimum range and superiority vs buildings as well as potential to crit the armor reliant Ost troops.
So no insult there. Just an observation that your post really meant absolutely nothing at all.
Posts: 2181
Your tier argument was irrelevant, because overall, Ost still has less, regardless of tier selection.
Why is this a bad thing? I'm saying the options germans have are fare more superior to the Sovjet ones.
Your "rarely seen" argument was irrelevant, because its subjective.
Yes and finding the disparity a problem is also subjective. Atgun barrage is expensive and su76 is not a great tank overall
Your German Panzerwerfer/Mortar/Howitzer "indirect" fire rate of fire and cooldowns argument was irrelevant, because it is accounted for commensurately by Sov alternatives having asymmetric equivalence in terms of more damage and AoE.
-Panzerwerfer has lower cooldown and fires all it's missiles in one go > more damage and higher AoE
-German howitzer is VASTLY superior to Sovjet one. Sovjet fires only 8/9 shells while the german fires a lot more and has only ~30 sec cooldown. That is a lot more damage total
-German mortar might be balanced against soviet one but feels stronger, let's say they are balanced
That gives 2 extra nondoc units for Soviets
ATgun barrage, expensive but okay damage
SU76, weak tank with okay damage
Your argument of RNade as an indirect fire option is irrelevant because a Molotov can also be thrown indirectly, and furthermore is asymmetrically balanced due to no minimum range and superiority vs buildings as well as potential to crit the armor reliant Ost troops.
You were listing all the indirect fire options even though you would never see all of those in a normal game. Might as well include more
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