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1 Month till February, changes within scope

30 Dec 2016, 23:55 PM
#21
avatar of BlickWinkel

Posts: 49

Just give demos to axis too, so when both sides cry about them and see the problem we can start thinking about an anctual solution.
30 Dec 2016, 23:56 PM
#22
avatar of Polar Lights

Posts: 20




Chance that demolition squad will wipe squad moving in open field (not clumped) is really small. He would have to directly go through that demo and enemy will have to detonate demo in exact moment. Simply chance of wiping squad in the open (full health) is really small. Even smaller with new patch spacing.

So this leaves demos good to 3 things.

Place them on capping point
Place them near areas where squads clump on
Place them on buildings.


They will still be placeable on buildings because thats what you suggest to change.

Demo on capping point cannot wipe your squad if you use some king of micro. Simple move from other direction than normal capping direction by shortest route and don´t cap near circle. By this enemy cannot wipe your squad with demo - most likely, if you know how to position your squad in circle. If he detonate demo, you lose 2-3 members and he lose 90 munnition.

Only think where there may be problematic are areas where squads clump on because this may lead to several wipes and you cannot counter it.


So all in all if we allow demos to be placeable on bridges, houses AND CAPPING CIRCLES they should be fine. If you don´t cap without sweeper its your problem. OKW have the same ability for 50 munnition on obersoldaten


Except Obers booby trap point often only kills two men. This makes it very costly when a 30 muni mine will do the same thing. Will prob be even worse after patch and it only gets one model due large squad spacing.
31 Dec 2016, 08:58 AM
#23
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7



Except Obers booby trap point often only kills two men. This makes it very costly when a 30 muni mine will do the same thing. Will prob be even worse after patch and it only gets one model due large squad spacing.


1.Stay in the capping squad until whole enemy squad enters capping circle
2. move from capping circle
3. wipe squad
4. ...
5. profit


But yes I agree that demo easier to use and harder to avoid on all levels of play except top level. Sorry, I latest time I often forgot that not everyone is able to micro each squad around each capping point to avoid 90 munnition squad wipe.

I agree with you that demo risk(enemy micro and squad cost + vet) vs reward (90 munnition + clicking one button) is set too high
31 Dec 2016, 14:52 PM
#24
avatar of JackDickolson

Posts: 181


  • Pretend demos don't exist and Lose Squads - Game Loss
  • Treat every uncapped territory & building without vision as potential game loss without a Sturm.


Although you are being very reasonable and I can relate with your unpleasant experiences as OKW, I think demos are OK. Maybe their price should be increased a bit, but that's it. Nerfing soviet demos means they should nerf Ober/Jager BTs, Glider commandos and AEs.


And most importantly, it is one of those unique "flavors". I laugh my ass off when I watch a freshly upgraded panzergrenadier flies into the orbit, because the player was either reckless or I just placed the thing in a smart position. After a while, you develop an instinct and will know which locations are likely to be used for such purpose.


That said, there is a thread here started by Frost, which is about general high-priority things which are not acknowledged by relic yet.

31 Dec 2016, 16:12 PM
#25
avatar of Bulgakov

Posts: 987



you do realize they cost almost 100 muni?


Munitions aren't a huge issue for soviets.

In any case, it's 100 muni for an ability with an excellent chance to insta wipe a full vet squad.

Minesweepers are the obvious counter but it means you can't get a shrek as OKW or you have to go double Sturms. It also means you can't send single squads capping or blob up to counter the enemy guards/cons blob unless you have a sweeper unit.

The impact of demos is more than just the occasional wipe. Just the possibility that there is a demo shuts down harrassing with single units.


And have you ever heard any caster shout "Wow, yeah, what an excellent use of demo, much skill, wow!"

Demos are bad.
31 Dec 2016, 22:39 PM
#26
avatar of DonnieChan

Posts: 2272 | Subs: 1

@Barton
I think that change would be a slight buff overall? You would have those krafty engineers putting single wires all over the place! Soviet wire is very quick to erect. I do like that as a game mechanic though, it would require a little more micro and becomes an interesting mental game of "FEAR MY WIRE".


@Hector
I agree they are definitely good at their job. Too good in fact. 3 Mines in their current state have nowhere near the same impact on slowing capping as they cannot be clumped and only kill 2 models. Before the mine nerf this was a better argument.

As for "responding to enemy actions", you have two choices:
  • Pretend demos don't exist and Lose Squads - Game Loss
  • Treat every uncapped territory & building without vision as potential game loss without a Sturm.

The main problem is not the munitions cost, its manpower. As I said this is much less a problem for Wehr with the cost effective pioneer.

I cannot fight a multi-flank battle, or even properly assault machine guns from multiple angles without multiple Sturm Pioneers. But, their combat effectiveness is simply too low for this to be cost effective in mid game. Late game I hit the popcap ceiling in which they are also incredibly inefficient.

Multiple Sturm is only acceptable if I could get both a flamethrower and a minesweeper upgrade, or a minesweeper and a panzershrek allowing me to actually exploit the munitions advantage you mention above and scale this 300 manpower 9 popcap unit...

My volks already have stg 44s and as many grenades as they want. Munitions have never been a problem for me. In fact if I had weapon racks in my base I would be laughing all the way to the bank.



replay?

my assumption is your 4v4 volxblob got deleted and you are butthurt now

2 Jan 2017, 08:45 AM
#27
avatar of okwplayer

Posts: 20



Munitions aren't a huge issue for soviets.

In any case, it's 100 muni for an ability with an excellent chance to insta wipe a full vet squad.

Minesweepers are the obvious counter but it means you can't get a shrek as OKW or you have to go double Sturms. It also means you can't send single squads capping or blob up to counter the enemy guards/cons blob unless you have a sweeper unit.

The impact of demos is more than just the occasional wipe. Just the possibility that there is a demo shuts down harrassing with single units.


And have you ever heard any caster shout "Wow, yeah, what an excellent use of demo, much skill, wow!"

Demos are bad.


YES! The possibility is what hurts. I'd love to be able to multi-flank battle with single units. I'd also love to be able to get a shrek, even just 1 would be nice. Member shreks on volks? :)

2 Jan 2017, 10:41 AM
#28
avatar of squippy

Posts: 484


And I am looking for one single logical argument as why small arms must be able to penetrate and soft counter the Puma and 222.


I've remarked on this oddity myself. My guess is that it's so infantry can deter and repel these vehicles, while offering little risk of destroying them. Otherwise you might be able to just close on inf and push them out of cover etc with impunity, or rush straight into the enemy base to hunt snipers, retreated squads, and for inspection purposes.

I'm not entirely happy with this state of affairs, but there is some method to the madness.
2 Jan 2017, 11:28 AM
#29
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 3029 | Subs: 3



  • STORMTROOPERS Their stock rifles need to be better, a lot better. Their upgrade costs are expensive and with the camouflage nerfs, they are going to be at an even weaker position.






OK seriously, when do noobs start to abandon the idea of broken infiltration squads?? Stormtroopers are an example of balanced infiltration inf. Though I agree that their stg44 upgrade needs to become cheaper.

Like seriously, sry but imo this way of thinking is so retarded: "What? The enemy infil. inf is broken? I want that too!"

And this is why bundled nades are as broken as light gammon bombs
2 Jan 2017, 20:38 PM
#30
avatar of JackDickolson

Posts: 181



OK seriously, when do noobs start to abandon the idea of broken infiltration squads?? Stormtroopers are an example of balanced infiltration inf. Though I agree that their stg44 upgrade needs to become cheaper.

Like seriously, sry but imo this way of thinking is so retarded: "What? The enemy infil. inf is broken? I want that too!"

And this is why bundled nades are as broken as light gammon bombs
I don't see the need for this dramatized greifing and the use of snide remarks.

I disagree with your view on Stormtroopers. And "What? The enemy infil. inf is broken? I want that too!" was not my reasoning either. They simply lack punch. They are also the only elite call in infantry for ostheer, so they need to have better out-of-box performance. In fact, if there was one infil unit which needed to have decent stats, it would be the encirclement Stormtroopers. They are designed for that role, the whole doctrine and almost all of its abilities depend on the utilization of Stormtroopers.






I've remarked on this oddity myself. My guess is that it's so infantry can deter and repel these vehicles, while offering little risk of destroying them. Otherwise you might be able to just close on inf and push them out of cover etc with impunity, or rush straight into the enemy base to hunt snipers, retreated squads, and for inspection purposes.

I'm not entirely happy with this state of affairs, but there is some method to the madness.
That reasoning would make sense if we were talking about the kubel/UC.


We need to make up our minds and decide whether it is the unarmed infantry that should be capable of pushing vehicles away or it should be the other way around.


Regarding demos, Highfiveee came up with a decent solution. But still I am more in favor of leaving them as they are, aside from a minor cost adjustment.

4 Jan 2017, 11:09 AM
#31
avatar of Blalord

Posts: 742 | Subs: 1

Demo should only be able to detonate when a engineer is at "insert number" meter of the demo !
4 Jan 2017, 11:20 AM
#32
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17


Regarding demos, Highfiveee came up with a decent solution. But still I am more in favor of leaving them as they are, aside from a minor cost adjustment.



*whoosh*

Could you reiterate that solution to demos? It doesn't hurt having more ideas about this one thing.

Demo should only be able to detonate when a engineer is at "insert number" meter of the demo !


While this sounds like an excellent idea, I am not 100% sure this is implementable.
4 Jan 2017, 11:28 AM
#33
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7


While this sounds like an excellent idea, I am not 100% sure this is implementable.


I don´t think this one alone is best solution. You simply hide 170MP engineer behind VP for some time and you still have almost guaranteed wipe if he doesn´t came with sweepers.


Also you almost always leave commandos hidden near demo to kill any1 who survives explosion.

It may be intersting idea, but it will only make demos harder to use, it won´t solve problem. demos will still wipe lone squads
4 Jan 2017, 11:54 AM
#34
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

First of all demo charges should become inactive if detected by sweepers...If one find them one still has to fire on them to detonate them.

Second demo charger should do less damage when detonated similar to Goliath not more...

Another suggestion would be for the enemy to be either able to take MU for disarming a demo charge or use it as his own.

That would make spamming planting demo charges a less effective strategy and require more planning.
4 Jan 2017, 12:18 PM
#35
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17



I don´t think this one alone is best solution. You simply hide 170MP engineer behind VP for some time and you still have almost guaranteed wipe if he doesn´t came with sweepers.


Also you almost always leave commandos hidden near demo to kill any1 who survives explosion.

It may be intersting idea, but it will only make demos harder to use, it won´t solve problem. demos will still wipe lone squads


It depends on the distance to the demo charge.

You don't require sweepers to spot either. You can detect them with one of the multiple detector abilities, or use recon. That definitely adds more counterplay rather than "lol, you failed to blob everything with a sweeper; time to die!"

Spreading your forces makes it more likely that you will discover the hidden engineer squad before you expose yourself to danger.
4 Jan 2017, 12:48 PM
#36
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned
Just give demos to axis too, so when both sides cry about them and see the problem we can start thinking about an anctual solution.


So give non doctrinal heay tanks too and heavy tank destroyers for allies.
4 Jan 2017, 12:49 PM
#37
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned


Except Obers booby trap point often only kills two men. This makes it very costly when a 30 muni mine will do the same thing. Will prob be even worse after patch and it only gets one model due large squad spacing.


Booby trap can whipe, how ? you can build more then one in one point, 2 of them wipe squad.
4 Jan 2017, 12:51 PM
#38
avatar of vasa1719

Posts: 2635 | Subs: 4

Permanently Banned


Munitions aren't a huge issue for soviets.

In any case, it's 100 muni for an ability with an excellent chance to insta wipe a full vet squad.

Minesweepers are the obvious counter but it means you can't get a shrek as OKW or you have to go double Sturms. It also means you can't send single squads capping or blob up to counter the enemy guards/cons blob unless you have a sweeper unit.

The impact of demos is more than just the occasional wipe. Just the possibility that there is a demo shuts down harrassing with single units.


And have you ever heard any caster shout "Wow, yeah, what an excellent use of demo, much skill, wow!"

Demos are bad.


LOL this game are not about perfect situations, somtimes need sacrefice somthing and now you whanna just no brain games for axis.
4 Jan 2017, 13:53 PM
#39
avatar of Gluhoman

Posts: 380



Munitions aren't a huge issue for soviets.

In any case, it's 100 muni for an ability with an excellent chance to insta wipe a full vet squad.

Minesweepers are the obvious counter but it means you can't get a shrek as OKW or you have to go double Sturms. It also means you can't send single squads capping or blob up to counter the enemy guards/cons blob unless you have a sweeper unit.

The impact of demos is more than just the occasional wipe. Just the possibility that there is a demo shuts down harrassing with single units.


And have you ever heard any caster shout "Wow, yeah, what an excellent use of demo, much skill, wow!"

Demos are bad.
Who needs shreck engis when we have strong german pupchens.
4 Jan 2017, 15:36 PM
#40
avatar of Blalord

Posts: 742 | Subs: 1



I don´t think this one alone is best solution. You simply hide 170MP engineer behind VP for some time and you still have almost guaranteed wipe if he doesn´t came with sweepers.


Also you almost always leave commandos hidden near demo to kill any1 who survives explosion.

It may be intersting idea, but it will only make demos harder to use, it won´t solve problem. demos will still wipe lone squads


- It make you invest 90 muni + a squad, and if someone spot your Engineer, near a vp, they will be more vigilant.

- You will not play the "plant and forget until some squad decide to visit the one shot kiss" in multiple locations, or you will loose map presence

- S mines have a sign, and demo require an engineer at least at "a balanced number here" meter to be detonable, seems fair.

PS: my main factions is soviet in 2v2 random, and i am rank 49, so i am not really an anti soviet fanboy, i just want a better game for everyone
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