M10 call-in is too strong compared to Puma call-in

Still don't see how that makes it bad. It's only 80 fuel, it's not like it locks you out of teching up.

If instead of building a panic puma, you build panzerschrecks or even a second pak to stall until t3 hits, you'd have a much stronger mid to late game. It's bad because most of the time people use it they would have been better off not using it. Does that make sense? Also 9/10 players forget to tech and float 300 billion fuel after they get their panic puma and command tank combo out, but that's just bad RTS fundamentals at work.


The only time a panic puma makes ANY sense is if you are losing really, really hard and T3 isn't an option anymore. If you're sitting on three strat points and +7 fuel, fine.

If instead of building a panic puma, you build panzerschrecks or even a second pak to stall until t3 hits, you'd have a much stronger mid to late game. It's bad because most of the time people use it they would have been better off not using it. Does that make sense? Also 9/10 players forget to tech and float 300 billion fuel after they get their panic puma and command tank combo out, but that's just bad RTS fundamentals at work.


The only time a panic puma makes ANY sense is if you are losing really, really hard and T3 isn't an option anymore. If you're sitting on three strat points and +7 fuel, fine.

So you think the majority of ESL players that choose Ostheer just don't know what they are doing then. Alright. They clearly never thought about getting Schrecks and forget to tech up. All 35% of games played was just a total noob in control.

M10 is OK, Buff the Puma

I would say the opposite is true. The puma is one of the strongest anti-tank vehicles. The disadvantage is its low health so it is a glass cannon. However their smoke ability helps greatly to keep them alive. Also the command tank aura buff goes a long way.

As weh currently is, you will lose ground to allies so they will get a T-70 or Stuart out before/as you get a pac out so the puma is a good counter. It is a mobile pac40, along with having the OP stun shot. The problem people make is they only make pumas, without pac support.

While it could be argued teching or getting a tiger is better, weh can easily do well with only T1 & T2. Grens, MGs, mortars, snipers is the anti-inf and 2 pac40s, being the best AT gun as well as having OP stun shot, will deter any armor. The pumas & command tank complements a heavy T1-T2 build.

Lastly to address the M10, one of its positive features is its spammability and its high speed, leading to crazy crushing capabilities. However, the commander is lacking beyond this. M10s are not as good as Jacksons so they will Peter out. M10s are good to keep up USF mid game aggression before USF starts to drop off so one should only use them to help close out the enemy.

Compairing light vechile and medium TD.

mobile defense wont be so popular after the command p4 aura gets removed

Comparing light vehicle and medium TD.

You mean comparing light vehicle to medium vehicle isn't valid?

What about krupp steal, Billy, WHAT ABOUT KRUPP STAHL!?

Seriously though, Puma is fine, so is M10. Only thing keeping Puma from becoming batshit insane OP is pen drop over range.

Puma is a great unit, I use it to skip T3 and go directly Brumbar.

1x pak + 1 puma + 1 command tank and then T4 Brumbar. If I need more At power, I call more Puma

Now, Puma comes CP5 and M10 CP8, not exactly the same time... Comparing both is not really relevant.

So you think the majority of ESL players that choose Ostheer just don't know what they are doing then. Alright. They clearly never thought about getting Schrecks and forget to tech up. All 35% of games played was just a total noob in control.

It always comes down to this argument. "They're top level players! Of course they know how to best play the game."

I played DoW2 for years, and the way people played it at the top level in 2010 is completely different from top level today. People get better at the game, the meta evolves as people get better. Things that we thought were underpowered became one of the strongest tools in the game. Things that we thought were overpowered ended up being pretty easily countered. People went from only using 1/6th of all the tools to using 5/6th of them. Things that were "too micro intensive" became everyday tactics.

It took how many years for people to figure out that veterancy wasn't working on reinforced models and you guys have the arrogance to think that floating 200-400 munitions with no weapon upgrades is optimal strategy, a very common mistake with USF. Again, see the game I linked where USF didn't get weapon upgrades until the 14 minute mark when he could have started getting them at 6. He also never built an ambulance throughout the entire 30 minute game.

But you know, ESL grand finals so clearly he knows best and he couldn't have improved in any way.

Here's the link again if you want to check what I mean

https://youtu.be/5vkoaybI6so

It always comes down to this argument. "They're top level players! Of course they know how to best play the game."

I played DoW2 for years, and the way people played it at the top level in 2010 is completely different from top level today. People get better at the game, the meta evolves as people get better. Things that we thought were underpowered became one of the strongest tools in the game. Things that we thought were overpowered ended up being pretty easily countered. People went from only using 1/6th of all the tools to using 5/6th of them. Things that were "too micro intensive" became everyday tactics.

It took how many years for people to figure out that veterancy wasn't working on reinforced models and you guys have the arrogance to think that floating 200-400 munitions with no weapon upgrades is optimal strategy, a very common mistake with USF. Again, see the game I linked where USF didn't get weapon upgrades until the 14 minute mark when he could have started getting them at 6. He also never built an ambulance throughout the entire 30 minute game.

But you know, ESL grand finals so clearly he knows best and he couldn't have improved in any way.

Here's the link again if you want to check what I mean

https://youtu.be/5vkoaybI6so

You can't really take one ESL match out of the pack to say ESL players aren't taking good decision because of one. Sometime people fail and aren't at their optimal level for one or couple of matchs.

People says PUMA isn't great while it is, PUMA counter everything on wheels and tracks except Super Heavy tanks and thanks to the next patch, PUMA will also counter the Heaviest tanks!

Top players are like any players, they want to win and even more in ESL competition. So they don't try to innovate, they use what is the best, the simplest for them and the most effective way to win their match.
Only a couple of top players are really trying to innovating things, to change B.O, to shake the meta and usually they aren't the best one, they aren't the one winning competitions.
Is Cruzz the best player? no, he is at top level but not the best while he is probably the one knowing numbers better than anybody else.
Is Redxwing the best player? no, but he is the player trying to innovate the more, using unused commanders, some considerate as pure crap and still win with them, making them shine and casters saying
-Wow, at the end this commander isn't that bad, we should give him more tries.

It always comes down to this argument. "They're top level players! Of course they know how to best play the game."

I played DoW2 for years, and the way people played it at the top level in 2010 is completely different from top level today. People get better at the game, the meta evolves as people get better. Things that we thought were underpowered became one of the strongest tools in the game. Things that we thought were overpowered ended up being pretty easily countered. People went from only using 1/6th of all the tools to using 5/6th of them. Things that were "too micro intensive" became everyday tactics.

It took how many years for people to figure out that veterancy wasn't working on reinforced models and you guys have the arrogance to think that floating 200-400 munitions with no weapon upgrades is optimal strategy, a very common mistake with USF. Again, see the game I linked where USF didn't get weapon upgrades until the 14 minute mark when he could have started getting them at 6. He also never built an ambulance throughout the entire 30 minute game.

But you know, ESL grand finals so clearly he knows best and he couldn't have improved in any way.

Here's the link again if you want to check what I mean

https://youtu.be/5vkoaybI6so

Meta changes as a direct response to patches. Granted, there may be organic shifts in the meta but most come from buffs & nerfs.

As to my match, it had nothing to do with pumas and more to do with the unkillable weh sniper along with the doubt shot from the vet 1 ability (and let us not forget how bad USF is overall). The puma was of little consequence that game. A better example, which shows the power of the puma's synergy with a heavy T1-T2 build, would be this game against paula on the same map

Also should be noted Veterency wasn't working for less than a year, despite anything Relic says. There was a patch in 2015, after the brit release, which dealt with vet that was probably the point where the bug was introduced.

Meta changes as a direct response to patches. Granted, there may be organic shifts in the meta but most come from buffs & nerfs.

As to my match, it had nothing to do with pumas and more to do with the unkillable weh sniper along with the doubt shot from the vet 1 ability (and let us not forget how bad USF is overall). The puma was of little consequence that game. A better example, which shows the power of the puma's synergy with a heavy T1-T2 build, would be this game against paula on the same map

Also should be noted Veterency wasn't working for less than a year, despite anything Relic says. There was a patch in 2015, after the brit release, which dealt with vet that was probably the point where the bug was introduced.

Don't forget the rest of Mobile Defense are also pretty good (maybe not counter attack which is meh): smoke for vehicles, Osttruppen for screening and OP command P4, Puma is not the sole selling point of the commander.

People says PUMA isn't great while it is, PUMA counter everything on wheels and tracks except Super Heavy tanks and thanks to the next patch, PUMA will also counter the Heaviest tanks!

I don't know, man. Before I switched to wehr from sovs I killed pumas with t70s or su76s. They are not really that good.

Don't forget the rest of Mobile Defense are also pretty good (maybe not counter attack which is meh): smoke for vehicles, Osttruppen for screening and OP command P4, Puma is not the sole selling point of the commander.

Really though the only good thing is smoke. Osttruppen are only okay when you screwed up really bad and lost most of your infantry. Command tank kinda sucks even vs infantry since it has the same splash as normal p4 but the damage is twice as low, plus it doesn't have pintle mg. Getting it only for aura doesn't seem too great of an idea.

Pumas got range.

Nothing like sniping Shermans and chasing tanks while shooting from out of their range.

Pumas are more than capable of handling the entirety of the Soviet stock army. The same cannot be said about USF or UKF, but that's the thing: it's a great commander v Soviets, which means it isn't 100% always the best choice for an Axis player when they aren't playing against Soviets.

When you're playing with Mobile Defense or watching someone using it, take note of what factions they are fighting against.

I don't know, man. Before I switched to wehr from sovs I killed pumas with t70s or su76s. They are not really that good.

You're damn skilled then, because puma hardcounters both(su-76 depending if there are cons or guards around, but alone, its dead)

You're damn skilled then, because puma hardcounters both(su-76 depending if there are cons or guards around, but alone, its dead) ::

Well, I guess it depends on who starts the engagement. If t70 starts than he most likely kill unsupported puma. With su-76 though unless it is seriously flanked and cannot shoot it is really easy to kill puma. Just roll backwards and shoot it a bunch.

I don't know, man. Before I switched to wehr from sovs I killed pumas with t70s or su76s. They are not really that good.



Really though the only good thing is smoke. Osttruppen are only okay when you screwed up really bad and lost most of your infantry. Command tank kinda sucks even vs infantry since it has the same splash as normal p4 but the damage is twice as low, plus it doesn't have pintle mg. Getting it only for aura doesn't seem too great of an idea.

Osttruppen totally trash IS without Bren, Cons and is the most effective unit to faust/screen for your Sniper/Panzergren especially with Command tank, that bonus is OP as hell, this is a pretty solid commander, OH has been using them since its release, it covers all OH weakness: lack of cheap inf screen, light vehicle and late game staying power. It is not flashy like TA/Tiger/CAS but nothing hardcounter it, like in ESL people use Puma + Command P4 is nearly untouchable.

especially with Command tank, that bonus is OP as hell.

I wouldn't say it is OP, the british command vehicle aura with +35% accuracy, - 30% reload, -30% cooldown, - 30% received accuracy is a real beast compared to this one.

I wouldn't say it is OP, the british command vehicle aura with +35% accuracy, - 30% reload, -30% cooldown, - 30% received accuracy is a real beast compared to this one.

But it disables pretty much completely the vehicle its put on and 0.8 rec DMG modifier is incomparably more powerful then any of the british command vehicle bonuses.

Using brit command vehicle you pretty much end up with vulnerable aura bot, with ost command tank you still have potent combat vehicle and most powerful buff in game(and don't even dare to argue it isn't, everyone who remembers +2% hp bulletins knows how OP additional effective health vs all weapon types can be).

the thing with mobile defense is the fact that you get Puma + command tank + LMG ostruppen. 3 excellent units in one commander.

and since T1+T2 ostheer is so strong you really have no reason to tech up.

maybe get T3 into P4s with the command aura.

It's really a nobrainer, hope things change now that the command tank will get fixed.

Also, in general terms Puma > m10 but they are quite close in most situations.

You guys remember when luvnest destroyed an ISU with 4 pumas on a final? one of the pumas even got over a mine, but they made short work of the ISU