I'd like to have conscripts scale somewhat into late game. After 10 minutes or so, they exist just to throw molotovs and AT nades. Giving conscripts a non-doctrine weapon upgrade or two might also lessen the amount of maxim spam in the game. Maybe tie it in with the rifle command building or T3/T4.
It doesn't have to be the same weapon the Guards get. I know M1919s on paras are better than Riflemen. Vetted LMG Grens, Fusiiliers and Obersoldaten generally melt these guys without taking a scratch. They wouldn't be able to compete 1v1 with these units, but at least they'd put up a fight.
Thoughts on Conscripts getting a 1x DP-28 upgrade
28 Jul 2014, 10:48 AM
#1
Posts: 692
28 Jul 2014, 10:50 AM
#2
Posts: 1702
I've been asking for this for ages, however, it's relic design choice of conscripts being shit.
28 Jul 2014, 11:11 AM
#3
Posts: 752
Id say yes, if an option on a Commander that does not have other infantry callins or upgrades.
But on a vanilla tech basis, I dont think its possible without removing the native Merge and Oorah first. Some people might argue that "well, Merge and Oorah are shit", but that doesnt change the fact that a part of Conscript value is "invested" in these.
If Cons could upgrade to an LMG of some sort, it just pretty unfairly makes Grens with LMGs look rather shit in comparison.
I suppose if the DP upgrade removed Merge and Oorah from theCon unit, that would reconcile the difference a bit, but it would still leave Cons with an early advantage from Merge and Oorah, that Grens quite simply dont have. (In addition to the old and established asymmetric balance system, where Cons, and Soviet units overall, are much more apt for capturing support weapons without being decimated by the model transfer)
But on a vanilla tech basis, I dont think its possible without removing the native Merge and Oorah first. Some people might argue that "well, Merge and Oorah are shit", but that doesnt change the fact that a part of Conscript value is "invested" in these.
If Cons could upgrade to an LMG of some sort, it just pretty unfairly makes Grens with LMGs look rather shit in comparison.
I suppose if the DP upgrade removed Merge and Oorah from theCon unit, that would reconcile the difference a bit, but it would still leave Cons with an early advantage from Merge and Oorah, that Grens quite simply dont have. (In addition to the old and established asymmetric balance system, where Cons, and Soviet units overall, are much more apt for capturing support weapons without being decimated by the model transfer)
"You are competitive if play to win and make efforts to improve." -Basilone
28 Jul 2014, 11:21 AM
#4
Posts: 692
Yea, maybe a CP2 upgrade on a commander without shocks or guards
I don't think they'd make Grens look like shit at all. I love using Grens.
I don't think they'd make Grens look like shit at all. I love using Grens.
28 Jul 2014, 11:23 AM
#5
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
I don't think they need them at the moment. However, the maxim is probably getting nerfed soon, which will mean that the soviet core army will be substantially weaker. So I'm going to say "yes" but only after the maxim nerf gets through.
28 Jul 2014, 11:26 AM
#6
Posts: 752
I dont think a mid-lategame 6man unit with LMG, Merge and Oorah is fair, in comparison to simply a 4man unit with LMG.
Know what I mean?
Ironically, its exactly in mid-lategame, when the 6man size starts to be a real advantage for soaking dmg.
People say that Cons dont "scale" there, but actually, thats when the 6man thing becomes a real practical advantage when you start getting hit by a lot of non-small arms nastiness of various colors and sizes.
Merge is definately marginal, but useful sometimes. Oorah however, is pretty awesome for redeploying between fronts, wide flanks and to the field from base. Its easy to discount them, because they dont have a shiny "thisnkills shit" factor, but really, its quite an awesome native ability.
Know what I mean?
Ironically, its exactly in mid-lategame, when the 6man size starts to be a real advantage for soaking dmg.
People say that Cons dont "scale" there, but actually, thats when the 6man thing becomes a real practical advantage when you start getting hit by a lot of non-small arms nastiness of various colors and sizes.
Merge is definately marginal, but useful sometimes. Oorah however, is pretty awesome for redeploying between fronts, wide flanks and to the field from base. Its easy to discount them, because they dont have a shiny "thisnkills shit" factor, but really, its quite an awesome native ability.
"You are competitive if play to win and make efforts to improve." -Basilone
28 Jul 2014, 11:28 AM
#7
Posts: 17889 | Subs: 8
I'd rather cons stay short range with ppsh and penals be improved to be long range, but not by upgrade, but by adjusting their weapon profile as SVTs are awesome.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
28 Jul 2014, 11:51 AM
#8
Posts: 1439
What Katitof said.
28 Jul 2014, 12:00 PM
#9
Posts: 752
Whats Penal performance atm?
Last I checked, ages ago, it was roughly equal to G43 Grens, which I thought was a pretty good benchmark.
Especially for firing on the move. Imo, fixing Penals to G43 rate, would be a good place to start.
Edited to add: I agree with Katitof (shock/horror).
Consider even if Cons got a DP upgrade.
Why would you even want mid-long weapon on a unit optimised for close-mid?
Cons are not optimised for range. It would be quite silly to sit at mid-long range with the DP doing dmg, but the rest of your unit out of its optimum.
Furthermore, sort of doesnt synch with the synergy of Molotovs and Oorah, which are used in (and to get to) close range where the units weapons are at an optimum.
Why would you even want a mid-long range weapon on a unit that otherwise is at a optimum in close-mid, as well as with abilities that are tuned to that range?
Last I checked, ages ago, it was roughly equal to G43 Grens, which I thought was a pretty good benchmark.
Especially for firing on the move. Imo, fixing Penals to G43 rate, would be a good place to start.
Edited to add: I agree with Katitof (shock/horror).
Consider even if Cons got a DP upgrade.
Why would you even want mid-long weapon on a unit optimised for close-mid?
Cons are not optimised for range. It would be quite silly to sit at mid-long range with the DP doing dmg, but the rest of your unit out of its optimum.
Furthermore, sort of doesnt synch with the synergy of Molotovs and Oorah, which are used in (and to get to) close range where the units weapons are at an optimum.
Why would you even want a mid-long range weapon on a unit that otherwise is at a optimum in close-mid, as well as with abilities that are tuned to that range?
"You are competitive if play to win and make efforts to improve." -Basilone
28 Jul 2014, 12:11 PM
#10
Posts: 390
Permanently BannedPenals performance is pretty good they actually do a very good job at close range. However they are inferior to all german infantry at long range which is a huge problem because you almost have no core infantry as sovjet.
28 Jul 2014, 12:19 PM
#11
Posts: 17889 | Subs: 8
Whats Penal performance atm?
Last I checked, ages ago, it was roughly equal to G43 Grens, which I thought was a pretty good benchmark.
Not even close.
They are vastly inferior on the move and on range.
2 gren models with Kars outperform 6 models of penals at max range.
Two G43s on grens have almost 28DPS.
6 SVTs have over 32 and I'm talking just close range. At mid range and up G43s are even more superior.
G43s have 80% on the move, SVTs have 50%.
Penals can't even stand up to rifles, G43 grens are out of their league as well.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
28 Jul 2014, 12:24 PM
#12
Posts: 752
Thanks Katitof.
Well, shit, they fucked that up pretty bad then.
Id recommend a return to G43 rate, considering and allowing for squad size difference as well as infantry armor changes.
(That moving accuracy rate seems about right though, accounting for 2 more rifles on the Penals)
Costwise, it makes "sense" for Penals to roughly match G43 Grens, perhaps with a slightly greater impetus on mid rathet than long dps. Not necessqrily mid impetus, but I think that adds a bit of flavor and difference, and generally Id say that having a mid focus is actually better than a long focus, in most cases.
Well, shit, they fucked that up pretty bad then.
Id recommend a return to G43 rate, considering and allowing for squad size difference as well as infantry armor changes.
(That moving accuracy rate seems about right though, accounting for 2 more rifles on the Penals)
Costwise, it makes "sense" for Penals to roughly match G43 Grens, perhaps with a slightly greater impetus on mid rathet than long dps. Not necessqrily mid impetus, but I think that adds a bit of flavor and difference, and generally Id say that having a mid focus is actually better than a long focus, in most cases.
"You are competitive if play to win and make efforts to improve." -Basilone
28 Jul 2014, 12:29 PM
#13
Posts: 170
Why would you want a dp on conscripts.
If they need anything they just need something to fire on the move.
I would find something like a "body armor" upgrade far more useful. Conscripts act more like meat shields then anything.
The only problem I have with them is the speed at which they get obliterated late game by for example Obersoldaten.
If they need anything they just need something to fire on the move.
I would find something like a "body armor" upgrade far more useful. Conscripts act more like meat shields then anything.
The only problem I have with them is the speed at which they get obliterated late game by for example Obersoldaten.
28 Jul 2014, 15:29 PM
#14
Posts: 577
http://www.coh2.org/topic/21121/diversifing-the-dps-roles-of-penals-and-cons/post/189708
Upgrades aren't good for balance, Conscripts are not designed to be a lategame combat unit without PPSh41 upgrade and I'd rather have Penals or another unit take the long range role. Right now the only 'real' long range DPS they have is.. well sniper or Guards
Upgrades aren't good for balance, Conscripts are not designed to be a lategame combat unit without PPSh41 upgrade and I'd rather have Penals or another unit take the long range role. Right now the only 'real' long range DPS they have is.. well sniper or Guards
28 Jul 2014, 15:49 PM
#15
Posts: 752
Agree 50%.
Penals should be benchmarked at G43 equivalency, preferably in mid-long.
But, I still think, as I said in the thread you linked, that a "blank slate" and wide upgrade potential for Penals is the way to go.
So a strong mid-long vanilla, with a variety of options of weapon upgrades to fill the "gap" between Sov style Commander related specialised infantry.
Penals should be benchmarked at G43 equivalency, preferably in mid-long.
But, I still think, as I said in the thread you linked, that a "blank slate" and wide upgrade potential for Penals is the way to go.
So a strong mid-long vanilla, with a variety of options of weapon upgrades to fill the "gap" between Sov style Commander related specialised infantry.
"You are competitive if play to win and make efforts to improve." -Basilone
28 Jul 2014, 16:49 PM
#16
Posts: 306
My god that's horrifying.
I didn't even bother to look at G43 DPS until I read these comments. I always thought G43s were a long ranged upgrade considering that they have SCOPES.
It's ridiculous that a scoped G43 is such improves this much Close Range DPS and ON THE MOVE DPS. What the hell is the scope even for?
Regarding the topic, I think conscripts need be to changed in some way, but I don't think LMGs to be the right solution. Giving them LMGs would be introducing more Starcraft LMG death blobs to the game.
I didn't even bother to look at G43 DPS until I read these comments. I always thought G43s were a long ranged upgrade considering that they have SCOPES.
It's ridiculous that a scoped G43 is such improves this much Close Range DPS and ON THE MOVE DPS. What the hell is the scope even for?
Regarding the topic, I think conscripts need be to changed in some way, but I don't think LMGs to be the right solution. Giving them LMGs would be introducing more Starcraft LMG death blobs to the game.
28 Jul 2014, 16:51 PM
#17
Posts: 390
Permanently BannedAgree 50%.
Penals should be benchmarked at G43 equivalency, preferably in mid-long.
But, I still think, as I said in the thread you linked, that a "blank slate" and wide upgrade potential for Penals is the way to go.
So a strong mid-long vanilla, with a variety of options of weapon upgrades to fill the "gap" between Sov style Commander related specialised infantry.
Really like your posts, you seem to be very objective and not so biased
I really hope relic consider these options to change the penal troops. +1
28 Jul 2014, 17:00 PM
#18
Posts: 896
I'd like to have conscripts scale somewhat into late game. After 10 minutes or so, they exist just to throw molotovs and AT nades. Giving conscripts a non-doctrine weapon upgrade or two might also lessen the amount of maxim spam in the game. Maybe tie it in with the rifle command building or T3/T4.
It doesn't have to be the same weapon the Guards get. I know M1919s on paras are better than Riflemen. Vetted LMG Grens, Fusiiliers and Obersoldaten generally melt these guys without taking a scratch. They wouldn't be able to compete 1v1 with these units, but at least they'd put up a fight.
That is normal because late in the game most of the action moves to vehicles and tanks, so most infantry (both grens and cons) play the smaller role of capping and supporting armor. Keep in mind also that cons (compared to grens) are very good early in the game. It would not be fair to make them better later in the game.
28 Jul 2014, 17:05 PM
#19
Posts: 1702
That is normal because late in the game most of the action moves to vehicles and tanks, so most infantry (both grens and cons) play the smaller role of capping and supporting armor. Keep in mind also that cons (compared to grens) are very good early in the game. It would not be fair to make them better later in the game.
He isint asking to make them equal to lmg grens. DP cons would still lose to lmg grens. All he wants is them to be able to fight lmg grens. Nothing else.
28 Jul 2014, 17:20 PM
#20
Posts: 752
He isint asking to make them equal to lmg grens. DP cons would still lose to lmg grens. All he wants is them to be able to fight lmg grens. Nothing else.
At what range are you talking about?
"You are competitive if play to win and make efforts to improve." -Basilone
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