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Sniper Balance

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6 Mar 2014, 12:22 PM
#181
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 807

Build G43's. They will melt Snipers. Heavy Grenadier play with G-43's with a unupgraded Half Track to reinforce is the best way to deal with Soviet Sniper. Their insanely long range that prettymuch rivals the sniper and their very high accuracy at range makes it very easy to get the squad wipe, let alone just bleeding 90 munitions by counter sniping one of the crew. Considering you can't really get anything fantastic until 3CP, there's no reason to have picked a doctrine by the time the Sniper shows up and G43's are available. If it's a late game sniper you've got the Ostwind and PanzerWerfer to snipe it.

Other than that on a lot of maps you can really abuse the early game infantry deficit that the Soviet will have by going for a sniper by focusing on avoiding engagements and just being hyper aggressive with decapping and capping points. In the exact same style of indirectly dealing with a German Sniper as Soviets by abusing the impact it has on the infantry count. If I see a fast sniper on Langres I go 5-6 Grens into Half track and just be hyper aggressive. You should be 2 squads ahead of Grenadiers compared to Conscripts because of the sniper you can usually have much better capping power and map presence to the Soviet. Then if need be, if you have 3 Grens squads in a blob and just walk in the direction of the sniper you should lose 2 Grens and then force the retreat further capitalising on the decapping. So many Germans do not know how to adapt and cope and stay on a standard Gren Gren MG, Mortar, PGren and getting MG42 upgrade or something similar style of play.

Just like Soviets,playing as per normal with a standard unit composition ensure a loss against a good Sniper on Langres, Crossing in the Woods or perhaps even Semois. It's absoutely laughable when Germans build Panzer Grenadiers against a sniper and lose 45manpower per shot. 5-6 Gren play should be fine. A lot of people may be thinking going that heavy on Grens leaves you to vulnerable to Shocks. Yes it would, but no Soviet is going to go Sniper AND Shocks because then that would leave them completely open to getting absolutely rolled by a fast Flame Half Track or Scout cars. If that happens, get fast Minesweepers because mines would be their only form of preventing them from just outright losing the game to a Flame Half Track.

Bear in my mind my perspective is coming entirely from a 1v1 perspective. The issue with the Soviet sniper is it's power is so map dependant. On Crossing in the Woods or Langres for example they are rediculous strong (Unless you have G43's.) because of how open the maps are. Whereas on a map such as Kholodny or Road to Kharkov they are just simply not viable because of how many hedges, garrisons and shotblockers their are in the way of everything.

Keep in mind the Soviet Sniper costs 360mp + 200mp for Tier1 and having the engineer back to base for a while to build the Tier1. Where as the German sniper just costs 360mp from the barracks and then still gets every tech. The Soviet Sniper is a huge investment not only cost and map prescense/capping power, but also in opportunity cost.

Having Tier1 means that you don't have AT guns, don't have Mortars and don't have Maxim's. A huge blow that limits your options and counters. For example you can't counter a P4 with T-34 + AT gun. You need 2xT-34 unless the German is silly enough to drive over a mine somewhere unsupported. Since the Soviet will almost always go Tier1 into Tier 4 because without AT guns from Tier2 T-34's are just not effective against either P4's or Stugs, it means that the German could even skip Tier2 and a half track entirely and rush a Super fast ostwind before the SU-85 is near completion, and then backtech into Tier2 get 2 AT guns to ward off the SU-85 and then save up for a Panther or Tiger.

The Soviet Sniper is indirectly much stronger than German Sniper because of squad sizes and manpower bleed, but it's balanced by it being also such a huge investment to get both in the short term and then the long term because of the lack of units. It's like comparing Shocks to Panzer Grenadiers. Sure Shocks are better but they're more expensive, are Commander specific and now you can't get Guards as a result. If the Soviet Sniper was on Tier2 instead of either the Mortar or Maxim, then that would cause serious balance issues.

That being said, the sprint ability is just absurd and needs to be removed. It prevents a well executed flank from getting the squad wipe that it deserves to get. I'm fine with say the scout car having a super speedy boost, but a sniper team is silly and does not fit at all. Nerfing the sniper is a delicate situation because if it's balanced out to a level where it's balanced on the 2-3 maps that are causing issues at the moment, then the sniper alongside the rest of tech path would be even more useless and completely unviable on the majority of the other maps. As for team games... well teams games are never going to be balanced with how blobby and spammy they are.

But at the end of the day I think Germans really need to adapt their play style and not just do the same predetermined strategy and unit composition regardless of what they see. Something that is absolutely fundamental to playing Soviets because of the limitations and specialisation of the tiers and commanders.


Splendid. Only one thing I disagree to. Actually shocks are not more expensive than PZGrens. In my opinion you should ad at their price the T2 and the upgrade to T2 prices. Then, if we remake the calcullation we will obtain a cheaper unit that tears appart a more expensive one. Good thing they were moved at 2 CP and i hope they stay there.
6 Mar 2014, 13:35 PM
#182
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561



Splendid. Only one thing I disagree to. Actually shocks are not more expensive than PZGrens. In my opinion you should ad at their price the T2 and the upgrade to T2 prices. Then, if we remake the calcullation we will obtain a cheaper unit that tears appart a more expensive one. Good thing they were moved at 2 CP and i hope they stay there.

By that logic Tigers are cheaper then panzer 4s.
6 Mar 2014, 16:39 PM
#183
avatar of Mad_Hatter

Posts: 134

^ and elefant guns are cheaper than su85s :p
7 Mar 2014, 08:56 AM
#184
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 807

....Right. Still, there is no german infantry unit (doctrinal or not) that can keep up with shocks, and they are available in alot of doctrines, and these doctrines have very usefull other abilities. Going on your example, Elefant is available just in 2....

Anyway, this was off-topic. Sorry about that.
7 Mar 2014, 11:19 AM
#185
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17889 | Subs: 8

....Right. Still, there is no german infantry unit (doctrinal or not) that can keep up with shocks, and they are available in alot of doctrines, and these doctrines have very usefull other abilities. Going on your example, Elefant is available just in 2....

Anyway, this was off-topic. Sorry about that.


Tried dual flame pio yet?
Besides that, pgrens+literally anything.

And the number of doctrines the unit is available is completely irrelevant, you can have only 3 at a time.
7 Mar 2014, 12:34 PM
#186
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439

I have great results by incorporating German sniper into my BO. I don't focus on counter sniping but I go for MP bleed wherever I can trying to focus Soviet snipers with my Grens or any other unit that fits the purpose.
Seriously German sniper is a beast. The key is to use it in a proper way.
When Soviet will go for a scout car I'll try to ambush and Panzerfaust it from ambush.
Soviet sniper spam is still a heavy matchup but at least I can delay his tech long enough to get myself some vehicles while staying in line with tech.
7 Mar 2014, 14:34 PM
#187
avatar of Tetley

Posts: 187

I agree the German sniper is great for MP bleed. The issue is that if he dies quickly, either from RNG events or bad play/being outplayed its often gg. Can be quite hard to replace that loss.

Would love to give him some binoculars though. Extended sight zone but only in a cone shape. Be great to use with paks and stugs and would keep him further away for danger. :)
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