Pioneers - the biggest broken OST unit.

Jump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 20:36 PMRosbone

Just for clarity...

The pio design is two fold:
* Realism
* Asymmetrical balance

In WW2, Axis was very strong at the start of the war. Thus Sturms, Kubels, snipers, and pio sighted MGs.

In order for all factions to play differently, pios need vision to support the MG42. They give sight so it can be setup aggressively. Since they have good close range DPS they can then protect the MG when it gets flanked.

Soviets were late to the war and should be strong later in the game. Therefore as an EFA they do not need vision for maxims.

The constant "balancing" breaks the original ideas behind each faction. Which is what people complain about.

People complain about OP units until they get nerfed. Then other people complain about each faction playing the same

Jump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 21:08 PMRiley

"They give sight so it can be setup aggressivel" Did you mean firing from the fog of war at the very beginning of the battle, when you can't even see the mg42?

Jump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 21:08 PMRiley

And references to real WW2 do not work at all, otherwise you will open a pandora's box. The Germans have always been stronger than the Soviets, if you know even a little about history.

Jump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 21:32 PMRosbone

Yes this is exactly what I meant. Asymmetric balance. Are you going to also remove OORAH then? Because you will need to if you nerf the pios vision.

Personally I could care less about any of this. I am not against your argument. Just trying to put the conversation in perspective for everyone else reading.


Axis was aggressive early, Allies over came later. Just the general sense of the war. Not talking Germany vs Russia in a head to head illegal in 17 states unsanctioned grudge match.

Jump back to quoted post16 Feb 2022, 00:47 AMProtos Angelus

Pioneers having such a large sight is not really a problem in most scenarios. Sure, on some maps it's a bigger deal than on others, but it's still fine. They are a close quarters unit meaning that they can only really defend the MG42, and not trade with anyone cover to cover. Sure, you could make the bonus sight a vet1 bonus, but then oorah would have to go to vet as well; probably the IS cover bonus would also have to be redistributed onto veterancy (nerf vet0, buff vet1 cover bonus)... too much hassle to balance it at this stage of the game.

Also it's more of a teamgame issue where one MG42 can lock down a VP and a fuel point (Across the rheine, west spawn-bottom). And only for brits and USF. Brits lack a good smoke dispenser and the USF mortar will only be a population strain later on (having sh** AOE). Going for the 81mm mortar as soviets is even encouraged in teamgames on such maps, so the pio/mg42 will be negated.

All in all, it's a map design issue at most. Not an "OP unit" issue

Jump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 21:08 PMRiley

"They give sight so it can be setup aggressivel" Did you mean firing from the fog of war at the very beginning of the battle, when you can't even see the mg42?

Jump back to quoted post16 Feb 2022, 13:39 PMdonofsandiego

You're completely missing the point about cons btw. He's talking about soviet players using oorah to flank the MG, which pios prevent by sighting for the MG.

Generally the allies outnumber the axis players with mainline infantry early on. So for a bit it's an Axis MG + pioneer fighting an engineer and a con (for example). If axis loses that engagement and has to retreat the MG, they're going to constantly be on the back foot after it because of the sheer imbalance of infantry. (pio + gren VS. con, con, engineer)

That's why Axis has to have an advantage in setting up the MG and spotting for it. Plus, as mentioned earlier, they've got 4 man squads that they's otherwise have to check for MGs with their face. And here's the thing about allies not having as much sight for their MGs: when you start getting fired at, you're too far into the arc to just run back out. Consider it a blessing if the Axis player only shoots at you from max range, you get to keep your unit on the field and plan a counterattack.

Jump back to quoted post16 Feb 2022, 13:39 PMdonofsandiego

You're completely missing the point about cons btw. He's talking about soviet players using oorah to flank the MG, which pios prevent by sighting for the MG.

Generally the allies outnumber the axis players with mainline infantry early on. So for a bit it's an Axis MG + pioneer fighting an engineer and a con (for example). If axis loses that engagement and has to retreat the MG, they're going to constantly be on the back foot after it because of the sheer imbalance of infantry. (pio + gren VS. con, con, engineer)

That's why Axis has to have an advantage in setting up the MG and spotting for it. Plus, as mentioned earlier, they've got 4 man squads that they's otherwise have to check for MGs with their face. And here's the thing about allies not having as much sight for their MGs: when you start getting fired at, you're too far into the arc to just run back out. Consider it a blessing if the Axis player only shoots at you from max range, you get to keep your unit on the field and plan a counterattack.

Jump back to quoted post16 Feb 2022, 19:18 PMRiley

How can you compare "Oraah" for 15 muni, and a passive ability 42 sight range. This is a made up reason to justify a broken sight range..

Jump back to quoted post16 Feb 2022, 19:18 PMRiley

You are also very afraid of my topic, so you want to delete it, because I touched on a thing that you love very much.

Jump back to quoted post15 Feb 2022, 14:17 PMRiley

Pios have sight range 40. This means that they can know in advance where the vickers or maxim is located. And suppress your machine gun. For a long time I did not understand how the mg42 was shooting at me from the fog of war. Everything turned out to be simple - this is the sight range of the pioneers. How easily I take fuel or another important point in the early-early game, this is guaranteed.


This is not a problem in general, it is only debut problem and the solution to the problem is very simple. Move the sight range 40 to the 1 vet. The base sight range should be 35, like other units: combat eng, royal eng, and RE. It made more sense to give such to the rear echelon in order to coordinate the mortar. I remember Sturmäger talking about the pioneers a long time ago, but then no one else paid any attention to it.

Jump back to quoted post17 Feb 2022, 11:30 AMKurobane

I made a similar post about this long ago.

Whermacht in general have access to some of the best vision tools in the game. Wether it is from free Pioneers, Sniper, Scout Car or spotting scopes, they have numerous viable forms of extended vision options while USF really only has Pathfinders. Which is problematic considering that the design for USF is based on Rifleman and "flanking" the enemy. Kind of hard to do that when you have a vision disadvantage at almost all stages of the game minus one doctrinal unit.

To be clear im not advocating that the Pioneer vision be nerfed but rather numerous options for vision be spread out across the factions in a fairer manner.

Such as Rear Echelon getting a vision bonus, USF vehicles not needing to hit Vet 3 (Stuart) just to do what a Kubel can at Vet 0

Combat Engineers getting vision bonus at Vet 1, things like that for Soviets instead of crutching so hard on T-70 for vision or Mortar Flare Spam (which should be nerfed if other vision options are granted)

Jump back to quoted post17 Feb 2022, 11:30 AMKurobane

I made a similar post about this long ago.

Whermacht in general have access to some of the best vision tools in the game. Wether it is from free Pioneers, Sniper, Scout Car or spotting scopes, they have numerous viable forms of extended vision options while USF really only has Pathfinders. Which is problematic considering that the design for USF is based on Rifleman and "flanking" the enemy. Kind of hard to do that when you have a vision disadvantage at almost all stages of the game minus one doctrinal unit.

To be clear im not advocating that the Pioneer vision be nerfed but rather numerous options for vision be spread out across the factions in a fairer manner.

Such as Rear Echelon getting a vision bonus, USF vehicles not needing to hit Vet 3 (Stuart) just to do what a Kubel can at Vet 0

Combat Engineers getting vision bonus at Vet 1, things like that for Soviets instead of crutching so hard on T-70 for vision or Mortar Flare Spam (which should be nerfed if other vision options are granted)