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14 Apr 2020, 12:18 PM
#161
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 306



I didnt mean selfspot, sometimes i mix up terms, the ability for every single mainline to have extremely strong spotting range is beyond powerful because on a map like faymonvile where you're going to be hugging cover 60-80% of the time.

It means that for example i place the typical sandbag center and will see... any coming flanks from the northern front, the point left from there, meaning any flanks will be spotted almost instantly, and the flanks from the truck point. Now i'll admit this might not be 100% certainty in terms of testing, but i find that to be the case frequently and it makes for nightmares trying to push someone who's playing defensivly because he gets all the chances to prepare and move around as he wishes while you have to constantly use sightblockers, it also works excellently for units with great range like vetted up vickers (in trench) or simply giving your vickers constant max range firewithout having to expose it self or having your sections move forward that much more.

I think you are very heavily (maybe delibaretly.) underplaying the power of having your mainline infantry get amazing sight range. its partly why pathfinders are as powerful as they are, sight is a great tool. Which is why it's assinged to certain vehicles that come out early rather than later, having your tanks the ability to fire max range almost always is a great boon.


+1 basically
14 Apr 2020, 12:19 PM
#162
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2020, 12:03 PMVipper

So according to you HMG-42 has no advantage in suppression over vickers when having los, ok great to hear.

Now can you pls stop trolling?

Eh, sad to see your reading comprehension skills are as low as ever.

Which part of my post explaining how HMG42 couldn't use its range advantage to stop a blob made you think HMG42 got no suppression advantage over all other HMGs, or specifically one with 2nd lowest suppression right after maxim?

I'll get some crayons and explain it to you on PM later.
jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2020, 12:11 PMEsxile


So you agree we should be removing it from pfuss as well?

And G43 grens.
Do volks still have sight vet bonus? I've heard these things are OP now, so we probably should remove it too, just to be sure.
14 Apr 2020, 12:24 PM
#163
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

With sections you're going to get 3-5 which means you have much more significant coverage.


I know and I've already acknowledged that. It could very well be something to look into in the future. However I disagree calling it amazing or one of the core reasons IS might be OP. They've had it for years even when they had better stats and they have a good enough reason to have it. I think at the moment people are potentially overreacting (blobs can always work so that video proved essentially nothing) and we'll see what the score is in 1-2 weeks when the dust has settled and everyone has a much better and more objective view on the situation. We shouldn't draw any conclusions after just 3 days of a new patch.
14 Apr 2020, 12:26 PM
#164
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

We shouldn't draw any conclusions after just 3 days of a new patch.


Yes we should wait until the Cohrona cup is ruined to make the most basic 5IQ change to nerf sections which everyone at high ranks has acknowledged are broken, even Noggano and Asha.

The clip I posted was just to emphasize the point, if you want to watch why Sections are truly broken just watch the Noggano vs Asha best of 5 series that Gaddafi hosted.
14 Apr 2020, 12:31 PM
#165
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

Barely anything changed for Infantry Sections (0.05 RA out of cover and minor moving accuracy that has a relatively low influence on fights) so I doubt they suddenly became unbeatable overnight. Even if they did, it takes more than 3 days for people to potentially figure out how to beat it. First we should wait to see if the meta can evolve to deal with it. Only if it can't should we intervene.
14 Apr 2020, 12:35 PM
#166
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



Yes we should wait until the Cohrona cup is ruined to make the most basic 5IQ change to nerf sections which everyone at high ranks has acknowledged are broken, even Noggano and Asha.

To nerf what?
Their damage/DPS was not increased at all - how they "magically" started being so oppressive?
They do overkill damage, meaning their actual DPS is lower then their theoretical one.

10mp less made them op?
5% rec acc they had for years, lost for some time and were given back?
The fact they hit half the time instead of third on the move, when that wasn't even a factor on your own "proof"?
The sight vet/pyro that contributed absolutely nothing, yet vipper acts like its old IR HT?

What's your suggestion here?
14 Apr 2020, 12:45 PM
#167
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

Barely anything changed for Infantry Sections (0.05 RA out of cover and minor moving accuracy that has a relatively low influence on fights) so I doubt they suddenly became unbeatable overnight. Even if they did, it takes more than 3 days for people to potentially figure out how to beat it. First we should wait to see if the meta can evolve to deal with it. Only if it can't should we intervene.


That’s very reasonable.

Will you guys also take responsibility, which is very reasonable? If Brits roflstomp everyone and the cohrona cup is ruined by OP sections, will you and everyone else from the team who supported these British buffs leave the team for good?

Unless you wanna pay Matt the price pool if indeed the tournament is ruined, in which case fair play and power to you. The point is if you’re gonna ruin a big tournament where people donated their hard earned money, there should be consequences.
14 Apr 2020, 12:53 PM
#170
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2020, 11:26 AMJilet
Why everyone is just comparing the costs ? It is literally hypocracy to say MGs are natural counters to blobs and "this clip" is fine.

Having 4 units spread out so they don't all get suppressed is not blobbing.

In the clip they dont even have weapon upgrades and straight up frontrally engage MGs, which is not fun.

They had grenades though. I don't know of any HMG that can hold against 4 squad rushing in to throw grenades at it.
14 Apr 2020, 12:54 PM
#171
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833



Yeah but those are specialist squads, mainlines only have 35 sight. If Volks had 45 sight at vet 1 it would be a huge issue.


True but what other squads do brits have with good LoS? They don't have stock pio LoS ranges on their engineers. They have no Jaegers or pathfinders doctrinally. A pyro upgraded section is as close they get.

You could lock that LoS behind a doctrine but it wouldn't really be worth a slot on its own.
14 Apr 2020, 12:55 PM
#172
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3



True but what other squads do brits have with good LoS? They don't have stock pio LoS ranges on their engineers. They have no Jaegers or pathfinders doctrinally. A pyro upgraded section is as close they get.

You could lock that LoS behind a doctrine but it wouldn't really be worth a slot on its own.


Eh you can increase RE and AEC sight. You also get a sniper that's pretty safe vs OKW from countersnipe.

If all else fails you can just give the bonus only in garrisons instead of cover.
14 Apr 2020, 12:56 PM
#173
avatar of Fire and Terror

Posts: 306



True but what other squads do brits have with good LoS? They don't have stock pio LoS ranges on their engineers. They have no Jaegers or pathfinders doctrinally. A pyro upgraded section is as close they get.

You could lock that LoS behind a doctrine but it wouldn't really be worth a slot on its own.


you forget that pyro sections stack with vet 1, making them to pathfinders essentialy (non doc) while usf has to get a doctrine. So your point is basically useless
14 Apr 2020, 13:04 PM
#174
avatar of suora

Posts: 101



Balance team: We felt that sections were undeperfoming so we buffed them.

Reality: https://clips.twitch.tv/EncouragingLongWolfYouDontSay


Can someone explain to me how the new buffs relate to this clip? The one buff that is relevant is:

Target size from 0.9 to 0.85; target size in cover remains the same at 0.8


Which target size do they have in the clip? They're technically in cover but not from the direction of fire.
14 Apr 2020, 13:06 PM
#175
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833



you forget that pyro sections stack with vet 1, making them to pathfinders essentialy (non doc) while usf has to get a doctrine. So your point is basically useless


Jaeger, path LoS is actually better than vet pyro sight range and they don't require to be in stopped in cover to use it. The numbers are already here in the thread.

as others have pointed out it's not "essentially" the same. It's like saying Pgrens with ambush camo upgrade are the same as commando/stormtrooper camo... It's not because you have to be stationary in cover for it to have an effect.

14 Apr 2020, 13:07 PM
#176
avatar of T.R. Stormjäger

Posts: 3588 | Subs: 3

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2020, 13:04 PMsuora
snip.


I posted this to show that sections were already OP and brainless in cover as a further addition to fire and terror’s point.
14 Apr 2020, 13:08 PM
#177
avatar of suora

Posts: 101



I posted this to show that sections were already OP and brainless in cover as a further addition to fire and terror’s point.


Sure, but I'm still interested to know the answer.
14 Apr 2020, 13:08 PM
#178
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



True but what other squads do brits have with good LoS? They don't have stock pio LoS ranges on their engineers. They have no Jaegers or pathfinders doctrinally. A pyro upgraded section is as close they get.

You could lock that LoS behind a doctrine but it wouldn't really be worth a slot on its own.

Stock:
Sniper 45 vet 2 54
Vickers vet 1 in garrison 40.25
Officer reckon flight vet 1
bofors vet 2 42
17p "flare" ability
AEC sight 50
UC vet 1 sight 42
Comet sight 45
Cromwell 45
FF 45

Doctrinal
valentine vet 1 45.6 with ability 60
M3 vet 3 42
M5 vet 3 45.5

I do agree that a doctrinal recon infantry could become available and there even is one in the game files that even has crawl ability.
14 Apr 2020, 13:16 PM
#179
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2020, 13:04 PMsuora
Which target size do they have in the clip? They're technically in cover but not from the direction of fire.


Their target size becomes 0.8 when in cover regardless of direction. They were stationary too so there was nothing in that clip they couldn't do before. The Gren models happened to be focus fired one by one (first one because it was the first one coming around the corner and then all 4 IS models happened to focus down the other models one by one, which is rare but it can happen) which is some lucky RNG/circumstances that any squad could get. I don't know how one clip is supposed to prove anything. It's like when people took that Tightrope KV-1 vs Panther clip (which was an extraordinarily bad RNG streak for the Panther) and took it for fact that a hull down KV-1 could reliably beat a Panther.

The bare minimum sample size for anything even remotely conclusive is running 20-30 tests, ideally closer to 100-200 but obviously no one is going to take the time for that. Basing arguments off 1 single video is senseless.
14 Apr 2020, 13:16 PM
#180
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2020, 13:08 PMVipper

Stock:
Sniper 45 vet 2 54
Vickers vet 1 in garrison 40.25
Officer reckon flight vet 1
bofors vet 2 42
17p "flare" ability
AEC sight 50
UC vet 1 sight 42
Comet sight 45
Cromwell 45
FF 45

Doctrinal
valentine vet 1 45.6 with ability 60
M3 vet 3 42
M5 vet 3 45.5


those aren't squads for the most part

Sniper vet 2 is probably the only thing there you want spotting for your ATG like you can with pio/path/jaeger.

Rest of those are emplacements (lol), vet abilities for emplacements (lol) or vehicles. AEC and valentine aren't bad but they're not T-70 tier that unlocks vet3 in a heartbeat.
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