Golden boys?
|
CTP is one of the few abilities (together with stuff like Combined Arms) that are actually well designed in the sense that they can be really powerful but have a set of requirements in order to be activated. Much better than all the click-and-forget abilities like airplane strafes.
It's quite easy to prevent CTP by building caches and even if the enemy pulls it off it's quite easy to avoid it by quickly retreating your army (targeting is slow so nothing or barely anything will get hit) and take the cut-off back as soon as possible. I'd say the only real problem is that many players simply don't know how the ability works or what it does and don't recognize it when it's being used, but there's not much that can be done about that.
I'd love to just have 2-3 panicking voice lines stacked at once when it triggers. Would alert AND feel good to know the enemy should be freaking out. |
Seems like the issue is resolved, then? Fixing the "stacking" between anvil and the ability would remove the vast majority of the self-spotting, which would bring it inline with most similar abilities.
A bug/oversight shouldn't be the reason an ability is good or bad. The amount of LOS it provides in optimal situations is absurd.
Also, justifying a doc over-performing because of the name/theme isn't a good idea. Can we replace all the strafes with loiters in OST's "Close Air Support" doc? It would fit the theme/name better.
Flares, in general, need to be removed. Zero-counterplay vision doesn't fit the game.
The difference is, UKF's counter-barrage can't be destroyed. If an LeFH is bothering you with its counter-barrage, simply recon+off map it, and its gone - as is the ability. A new LeFH (or crew) would need to get to vet 1 again to use counter-barrage. However, UKF's 25lbs are in the base sector, meaning they can't be off-mapped. They're also part of the base structure itself, so even if you do hit it with on-map, it won't be decrewed or destroyed.
So it's a trade-off; less 'usable' range and a small cost, in exchange for it being indestructible.
As for "baiting" a counter-barrage with a mortar; it wouldn't actually work. There's no indication that the UKF player has selected counter-barrage, until its already firing. That means you'd need to preemptively fire a mortar closer to the UKF's base every single time you wanted to use your LeFH, simply do avoid an uncounterable, cheap, one-click ability. Also, I'm fairly certain the LeFH barrage lasts longer than a mortar barrage, so you'd need to either attack-ground with the mortar the entire time, or have two mortars; otherwise the UKF player could wait for the mortar to stop, before clicking the button.
Mortar barrage is 18 seconds, leFH is 43, per Stein's Data Crunching. leFH is gonna get shelled.
To stay on topic, from your discussion UKF Counter Battery is currently in a Catch 22, if it had range its oppressive, but without range it is worthless. So it is not a viable replacement for PO.
Concensus appears to just remove bonus pole range and look into duration. This also gives Anvil a use, as the pole range from that lets it self spot pushes (kinda, if they decap it insta stops the ability).
I didn't even know till now Anvil gave pole vision. |
The idea that it should stop armor is problematic to begin with. Trying to counter self propelled arty is difficult to begin with and the combination of the SPA with global defensive ability is simply bad. How would one supposed to counter the Sexton if the perimeter over watch stop all attacks for a long duration?
In my team games, generally the game hinges on whether the team gets rolled by a Panther train. So an answer is 3 Panthers. Sextons are already crazy rare in 1v1, so not an issue there. Another solution is to get close and panzerwerfer the Sexton. Sexton's don't have huge range, and are pretty squishy. I've lost them to well placed arti before. Counter-battery leFH also forces Sextons to move (I've made my opinion known about this, ML/20 should have CB).
PO is mostly used when a huge amount of munis are being floated and I need to stop a single push. It does not stop multiple pushes at once, as 1 Sexton shell and 1 mortar every 8 seconds just is not a lot of incoming fire (and decapping disables the ability in that sector). |
Back with results. Both target 1 unit at semi-random with their off-maps. Sector Arty did EXCEPTIONALLY more damage vs tanks (kinda to-be expected). Sector Arty ramps up as long it maintains targetting, and has an 8 second grace period to get targgetting back on before resetting ramp. I put down 5 panthers, it murdered 2, weapon critted 2, last one had half health.
Perimeter Overwatch just lasts too long, and gives too much vision. It is only nasty where the howitzers are pointed and have vision, and pretty stinking weak otherwise. Did about the same damage to 5 Panther tanks over the entire ability. The howitzers do not scale with number of troops, or at all, so Perimeter Overwatch will stop 1 push at a time, with a lot of time (~3-5s) waiting on base arty set up.
The huge amount of vision basically makes PO weak sauce sector artillery, but with PERMANENT VISION, SA's primary weakness.
The lack of any sign besides initial shells is naaaasty, it could use some red smoke across affected sectors.
If the howitzers are pointed correctly, there is maybe a 3-4 second time delay on the shell (just flight time). Most off-map artillery lands after about 8 seconds (as does the Perimeter Overwatch off-map). |
The derail is not because we debating "counter barrage" in thread about "perimeter over-watch" but because the main reason of SuperHansFan post has nothing to the ability but with eagerness to prove me wrong.
On topic, does both Perimeter Overwatch and Sector Artillery (the closest other) target all enemies in all sectors with independent off-maps? I keep seeing single unit tests, but I seem to remember Perimeter Overwatch just dumps on 1 target per sector in the re-work patch notes. This makes it a lot more weak sauce vs large balls where the base howitzers aren't forcing off. Also, it is weak sauce vs armor (again, as long as one doesn't sit in the base artillery barrage).
It doesn't stop armor trains very well.
I'll get back with test results. |
So you are determined to derail a thread because you want to prove wrong although you have trouble reading and understating.
You did not provide reason why what I posted was wrong. You started a list in what you opinion I "got wrong" on how counter barrage actually works and no amount of spin will change that.
The suggestion was:
Which means increase both range and increase that accuracy so that that counter barrage hit the LeFH.
To be clear I will repeat what I have posted since you seem to have trouble understanding in my opinion a 30 munition hard counter to LeFH with extra range and high accuracy will be OP.
You are entitled to think it would not be.
It's not derailing a thread if it is a viable option for replacing Perimeter Overwatch. Which it very much may be, just needs viable range and its accuracy reviewed (I was over zealous calling for outright accuracy buffs). |
I agree, I wasn't saying their okay. Just that the the point of that ability is reconnaissance
Yep. |
Can you add just fixing vision? that is the most problematic as it prevents the usual counter play for targeted artillery call-ins. |
No it wouldn't, vision is not the point of the ability. Vision is the point of early warning flares, which is on the same commander
All other abilities that do the targeting for you do not spot for themselves
Early Warning Flares are another problematic ability. Massive uncounterable vision, but uncontrollable where it goes. it feels bad for both sides. |