120mm Mortars & Grens Vs Cons

I agree, the issue is less about the precision strike than the RNG factor for this specific weapon system.

I don't know why this mortar is the only support that can exist with 1 member of a squad or why a 300 pound mortar tube can be retreated as quickly as it does.

@metastable14
So what you are saying is that a soviet t1 to t4 build which already dominates on anti-infantry range (snipers), anti vehicle range (su-85s) also needs to dominate on indirect fire range? That is the kind of combination that makes it so hard to play against, its like beating your head against a wall sometimes

I wouldnt have a problem with a t4 tech rush if it really was a risky gambit, but at 270/90 a soviet t4 building is a same-cost alternate choice as the t3 for the player. An su-85 costs the same as a panzer 4 and comes out at the same time, and that is the crux of the problem. If panthers and brummbars popped into the game at 10 min, we'd be crying foul too

I agree, the issue is less about the precision strike than the RNG factor for this specific weapon system.

I don't know why this mortar is the only support that can exist with 1 member of a squad or why a 300 pound mortar tube can be retreated as quickly as it does.

@metastable14
So what you are saying is that a soviet t1 to t4 build which already dominates on anti-infantry range (snipers), anti vehicle range (su-85s) also needs to dominate on indirect fire range? That is the kind of combination that makes it so hard to play against, its like beating your head against a wall sometimes

I wouldnt have a problem with a t4 tech rush if it really was a risky gambit, but at 270/90 a soviet t4 building is a same-cost alternate choice as the t3 for the player. An su-85 costs the same as a panzer 4 and comes out at the same time, and that is the crux of the problem. If panthers and brummbars popped into the game at 10 min, we'd be crying foul too

All I was saying is that the 120 should still have access to precision strike. If you are doing a T2 build would you really pick a doctrine to get a longer ranged mortar when you already have a mortar? I don't think there should be a change to soviet mortar abilities to create unnecessary diversity - weakening early indirect fire capabilities of T1-T4 play.

I agree though that SU85 + 120mm can be a potent combo because of their range advantage but Ostheer have the tools to deal with it. P4's can beat SU85's through flanking but that usually only happens through poor SU85 use or clever P4 use. When I play T1-T4 the Ostheer have two distinct windows where they can really push. The flame halftrack certainly has a range of time to run free on soviet infantry and even when I play well the P4 comes out 30sec to 1 min before the first SU85.

Edit: As a side note I think any strategy that relies on snipers is bound to fail. They are too much of a glass cannon. One sniper can be useful but building multiple isn't worth it. I just watched a stream (won't name names) where the soviet player lost because they built like 5 snipers and they kept dying. They are just a fragile unit (like they should be) and they can't be the backbone of any strategy - just support.

Perhaps reduce some of 120mms AoE dmg radius, so the round has a smaller, but equally deadly AoE, that is surrounded by a larger suppresion AoE?

Like this:
(Suppression(<DMG>)Suppression)

I dont entirely understand how AoE dmg is reduced the further it is from the point of impact, but I gather there is some playroom there, to reduce the actual hard DMG aoe radius, and include a hard suppression effect on the remainder of the 120mms total current AoE radius.

Meaning in practice less accidental squad wipes, but an increased secondary usefulness through the suppression AoE.

This presuming 120mms efficacyis not actually based in some accuracy stat, instead...

I think there is to many ranged units period (default mortars, 120 mm, MHT, stupid Zis barrage and other barrages) and powerful call in abilities that resemble damn alien attack.

Not saying that I am a great player, but its really annoying manually targeting mortar of any kind, only to be shot and wiped by someones mortar without them ever being aware of what is going on.

I would like COH style mortar, if you fire 2 rounds and stay there, your mortar is as good as dead. (same goes for being flanked by inf, you shouldn't be able to retreat your mortar unit if flanked, period)
All in all, micro and strategy have been seriously undervalued towards RNG dependable ranged units and paper/rock/scissors units.

This plopped up on my suggested youtube videos today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuK-Meu6KO4

They looked pretty bunched to me wouldn't a normal mortar of had the same effect?

They looked pretty bunched to me wouldn't a normal mortar of had the same effect?

That squad had more or less textbook cohesion in that green cover. Almost perfect spacing.
Wasnt "tight" at all, even due to the games internal vagaries of how units behave when ordered into cover.

I dont know "why" the hit was so perfect. I dont understand the exact mechanics behind mortar accuracy+scatter.
The hit seemed to score slightly behind the 3 at the wall, and next to the one vpbehind the crates.

Infact its notable that they "swap" positions, midway, which is when I THOUGHT the round would eventually devastate the unit.

I could really use some clarification from Relic on how mortars work:
1) Are Mortars more accurate on targets that are spotted by other units?
2) Are mortars more accurate on units that are directly in their own LoS?
(I ask this, because Ive seen 120mms DEVASTATE infantry that is pracrically next to them)
3) Are mortars coded to be more accurate, the more shots they fire at a guven target?

Understandably mortars are hard to fit into this scale of engagement, whereas IRL these mortars would be fielded FAR further back.

I was talking with Trademrk (who btw should absolutely be sent a personal invite to test server and forum, this guy is first class for this kind of thing) and he mentioned that "walking" the mortar accuracy, as it is done IRL would be a good implmenetation. Basicallymeaning that each shot fired, has a reduced accuracy/scatter penalty, as each subswquent shot is adjusted to hit closer to the target.

There would stillbe the chance of a "lucky" shot on first round, but the base accuracy/scatter be rather large.
Then with each subsequent shot on that specific fire order, the accuracy/scatter penalry is reduced.

I could really use some clarification from Relic on how mortars work:
1) Are Mortars more accurate on targets that are spotted by other units?
2) Are mortars more accurate on units that are directly in their own LoS?
(I ask this, because Ive seen 120mms DEVASTATE infantry that is pracrically next to them)
3) Are mortars coded to be more accurate, the more shots they fire at a guven target?

It is handled by the scatter mechanics:
The scatter angle defines how far to the right or left of the unit the shot can go. If a unit is very close, the distance it can go to the left or right is a lot smaller than when a unit is far away.

The scatter distance and scatter distance max determine how far "before" or "behind" a unit the shot can land. This value increases up to the maximum (scatter distance max) in a manner that is described by the "distance ratio" stat.
I am not sure how the distance ratio actually works (would appreciate input from a few number crunchers ) but I suspect it might be a simple (distance ratio * distance). In any case, the 120mm's lower (0.1) scatter ratio than the 82mm's and 81mm's (0.15) also means that it is more accurate than the normal mortars at "short" ranges. A part of the problem may stem from that.

When firing into (or through?) fog of war, the scatter angle and scatter distance are both multiplied by 1.25, so vision of the target certainly plays a role.

So the answers are
1) yes
2) no (no direct fire hit chance unless possible but implausible bug)
3) no (although the Soviet barrage abilities are slightly more accurate than their auto attack)

In any case, if the explosion radius weren't so large, all those problems wouldn't even exist.


A possible other solution could be to leave all of its scatter/AoE/damage stats and increasing the setup (3.5 s) as well as its for its size short teardown (2.5 s) times and maybe also increase its minimum range (7, same as other mortars).
This would shift the unit from its current role of "mortar, only better in everything" towards being a medium artillery piece. This role is also more representative of its long range and cost.
It would still have its killing power but it would be easier to take out (and harrass), especially with flanks and vehicles. However, I think just decreasing the AoE radius (and adjusting other stats) would be easier.

They looked pretty bunched to me wouldn't a normal mortar of had the same effect?

Possibly, but not necessarily. The chance for at least one soldier to survive a hit like that from a normal mortar isn't bad. The 120mm mortar has twice the damage and 1.5 times the blast radius (which means 225% of the area covered) of a normal mortar. This combination means that the area inside which infantry are annihilated (not just damaged) is much bigger.

aside from random replays of whining germans can you provide me one where a top tier player uses a 120mm effectively and it makes him win the game?

@Rofltehcat: Thank you very much for the explanation.
Relating to the setup time, I considered that, but owing to the 120mms range, it is usually very insulated from being harassed, so rarely has to move to attain range nor to escape attackers, and added to that, owing to its high survival, can mostly just sit there tanking and infact nuke the attacker, if its infantry, with a mortar shot.

The fact that this thing can run away with a 1 man crew only adds insult to injury.

If in the hands of someone who actually knows what they're doing, it's virtually unkillable. It is 100% unkillable if he's just base-camping it, which is incredibly viable on small maps like Langres.

whiny germans, never happy, when everything else is nerfed will they say that conscripts are op?.

i have lost whole squads to rifle grenades. should they be nerfed? no.
i have lost sqads to mines, should they be nerfed no.
ive lost squads to a single tank shot. should they be nerfed no.

cry cry cry whine whine whine.

whiny germans, never happy, when everything else is nerfed will they say that conscripts are op?.

i have lost whole squads to rifle grenades. should they be nerfed? no.
i have lost sqads to mines, should they be nerfed no.
ive lost squads to a single tank shot. should they be nerfed no.

cry cry cry whine whine whine.

Replays please, with time notifications.
Or even better, upload to youtube as A_E did on this particular instance.

Everyone loves those, and a substantial group of peoplw WILL watch them, and if the evidence is good, support you in changing them.

Though I have to admit Im still vitter qbout how people blatantly disregarded SU85s sniping PaKs and KV retreat killing entire units, despite clear and singularly evident videos showing them do it. I have much rage, in mah belleh.

I'd also increase the minimum range on all mortars. I've seen one gib an entire squad of grenadiers in cover less than half a screen away. On maps with lots of LOS blockers (especially Semois), they can be brutally effective even at ranges that should be too short for mortars of all things to be useful. I guess the 120mm's deadliness only accentuates this, as well as its near invincibility.

Replays please, with time notifications.
Or even better, upload to youtube as A_E did on this particular instance.

Everyone loves those, and a substantial group of peoplw WILL watch them, and if the evidence is good, support you in changing them.

Though I have to admit Im still vitter qbout how people blatantly disregarded SU85s sniping PaKs and KV retreat killing entire units, despite clear and singularly evident videos showing them do it. I have much rage, in mah belleh.

its hard to foresee bad luck. and i don't save replays to wine on a tread about how bad was my luck.

su snipe is not bad luck.
flametank burning is not bad luck.

OMG everybody is using the 120mm on SNF and it's one shotting ALL the german squads!!!111111

not

if you look at al the thing germans have and what russians have to take them on... only the 120mm wil come out as winnerr.

p5 medium tank? sure feels like its close to a fucking tiger. ost at guns or rus at guns..... heat round... rus get more vision...

p4 with vet 1 blitz(and smoke?) vs t.34 vet 1 go sit in a conder and cap a piont you usels sandbag. ues the su85 does good damage as it sould for a tank destroyer but lolz they way ppl can spam p4 its get kited to ****
in general shock troops are indeed pretty good but again lmg gen can take them on(not always) pg can take them on as wel but that also depend al me al they can be delt with with the ost inf accept for assult gen they are next t0 usless in my eys

also for the mortart truck who can get in the field reposition al the time after a barage and has a free napalm strike what would cost a rus player doctral 120 ammo hmmmm and then ppl say 120mm is op... okeeeee

if you look at al the thing germans have and what russians have to take them on... only the 120mm wil come out as winnerr.

Not so sure. I think MHT is better than 120mm. Moves faster and can shoot on the run plus got area anti weapon team fire bombardment. I know you can retreat to safety from fire field but so many times I saw my units roasted despite pressing retreat almost instantly.