Mirror Match

Actually I'd definitely have sex with cr4wler.

Actually I'd definitely have sex with cr4wler.

but only if its a mirror matchup


edit:

Guys, I just want to point out that insults neither supports your points, nor do they make you cool or sexually attractive.

Just throwing that out there.

It does in fact make you sexually attractive to others of the same sex


And the quote is about Berlin

Mirror matches don't make the game better from an e-sport or competitive standpoint, so it's just about adding more match ups at the cost of authenticity. Chess gets by just fine with one match up (and it's not a mirror match), and any good chess player knows both sides.

(I'm repeating this point because I think it's important and nobody has convincingly argued that it's wrong).

Mirror matches don't make the game better from an e-sport or competitive standpoint, so it's just about adding more match ups at the cost of authenticity. Chess gets by just fine with one match up (and it's not a mirror match), and any good chess player knows both sides.

(I'm repeating this point because I think it's important and nobody has convincingly argued that it's wrong).

It isn't necessarily wrong. It isn't necessarily correct either. It quite simply depends on how well the factions are designed around the concept of possible mirrors. Judging from what I've heard from people that played the alpha, it wasn't really an issue. Which is why I'm relatively optimistic towards mirrors.

And authenticity? I honestly don't care. Lacking authenticity never ruined Age of Empires 2 or Call of Duty 2 multiplayer for me. I get that some people actually get these kinds of games because they're somewhat historically accurate, and while that's fair, that's what the single player campaigns are for in my opinion.

Also, chess would've been mirrors if it wasn't for the fact that it's a turn-based game and thus asymmetrical by default. :V

It isn't necessarily wrong. It isn't necessarily correct either. It quite simply depends on how well the factions are designed around the concept of possible mirrors.V

Does the game become more competitive if balanced mirror matches are included, or just more diverse?

And authenticity? I honestly don't care. Lacking authenticity never ruined Age of Empires 2 or Call of Duty 2 multiplayer for me. I get that some people actually get these kinds of games because they're somewhat historically accurate, and while that's fair, that's what the single player campaigns are for in my opinion.

Do you gain anything apart from more diversity with the addition of mirrors? Is more diversity worth the loss of authenticity? In other words, are mirror matches an objectively superior addition, or truly just an aesthetic preference ("I prefer diversity/authenticity to authenticity/diversity")?

Also, chess would've been mirrors if it wasn't for the fact that it's a turn-based game and thus asymmetrical by default. :V

Exactly, that's one of the really amazing things about chess, it seems shocking that just having one side move first could create radically different play styles for two otherwise symmetric sides (mastering both sides of chess is many times harder than mastering both sides in CoH, I would guess).

Does the game become more competitive if balanced mirror matches are included, or just more diverse?

Do you gain anything apart from more diversity with the addition of mirrors? Is more diversity worth the loss of authenticity? In other words, are mirror matches an objectively superior addition, or truly just an aesthetic preference ("I prefer diversity/authenticity to authenticity/diversity")?

That depends entirely on how good the mirror matches turn out to be, obviously.

It isn't necessarily wrong. It isn't necessarily correct either. It quite simply depends on how well the factions are designed around the concept of possible mirrors. Judging from what I've heard from people that played the alpha, it wasn't really an issue. Which is why I'm relatively optimistic towards mirrors.

And authenticity? I honestly don't care. Lacking authenticity never ruined Age of Empires 2 or Call of Duty 2 multiplayer for me. I get that some people actually get these kinds of games because they're somewhat historically accurate, and while that's fair, that's what the single player campaigns are for in my opinion.

Also, chess would've been mirrors if it wasn't for the fact that it's a turn-based game and thus asymmetrical by default. :V

Any FPS multiplayer is completely different from any rts, and, as far as I am concerned, cannot be compared. The thing about Starcraft 2, Age of Empires 2, or warcraft 3 is that immersion and authenticity are not key components of them. They are however essential to what makes company of heroes a unique and outstanding game.

Ok, clearly being Socratic about it is not helping my case.

So, basically I would argue that a more diverse game with more match ups isn't necessarily better. A tournament with chess, xiangqi, and shogi isn't better than a tournament with just plain chess.

The point? Even if mirrors are really good, they do not make the game better in a competitive sense. Shogi and Xiangqi are pretty good board games but a tournament isn't necessarily better if you add them in.

Okay, so since ppl want some diversity, let's extend this this further

I reckon what we should do is set a Diplomacy setting (in unranked) which you can toggle allies and enemies, just like in AOE II and SC I. This not only employs mirror matches but also allows for greater flexibility in game DDDD

Lacking authenticity never ruined Age of Empires 2 or Call of Duty 2 multiplayer for me.

The thing is, mirror matches definitely don't ruin the authenticity of AOE 2. Civil wars were very common in that era.

But yeah, I tend to play these historical RTSes because of the authenticity and me clicking *Okay, based on common sense, I have a rough idea of what these units do*.

Does the game become more competitive if balanced mirror matches are included, or just more diverse?

If we want e-sport to be a bigger part in COH2 than in COH1, then yes. Because mirror matches make the organization of tournaments and other competition a LOT easier.

At the moment you are somewhat forced to do a Best of 3 format. The first 2 games are necessary to define a parameter (VP lead) which then decides, who has the unfair advantage in game 3.
Not only is this unfair in itself, but best of 3 matches are long! This makes it a lot more time consuming not only to play such tournaments, but also to organize them, because any bigger event expands over more than one day.
Leaques are almost impossible, cause they require a lot of different players to find an overlapping timewindow to play their games.
With mirror matches, best-of-1 games become totally fair. This lets us get rid of an articifial parameter (VP lead), and allows us to have more competition.

To implement mirrors into tournaments, they already have to be part of automatch, which is where the metagame evolves and strategies are developed. It goes hand in thand.
Put authenticity into singleplayer/custom games, but let the competitive part use its full potential!


Now there will be some people saying: "There is only a small bunch playing in tournaments, blablabla. Mirrors ruin it for everyone else, blablabla". But, this is the wrong perspective.
Events like Sunday Night Fights have shown how much of a followership is connected to such competitive events! All these people are involved, too. And the more of these events, the more visible COH2 will be, so it will grow.
You probably don't know how many new players the SNF shows brought to COH1. They jumped over it on the twitch.tv main page and wanted to play it themself. They post in the chat "what is this game called, it looks awesome". Additionally to advertising, this is how games get big!

The thing is, mirror matches definitely don't ruin the authenticity of AOE 2. Civil wars were very common in that era.

I'm not referring to the civil wars, I'm referring to the fact that certain nations plainly didn't fight each others. =p

Any FPS multiplayer is completely different from any rts, and, as far as I am concerned, cannot be compared. The thing about Starcraft 2, Age of Empires 2, or warcraft 3 is that immersion and authenticity are not key components of them. They are however essential to what makes company of heroes a unique and outstanding game.

Why?

Ok, clearly being Socratic about it is not helping my case.

So, basically I would argue that a more diverse game with more match ups isn't necessarily better. A tournament with chess, xiangqi, and shogi isn't better than a tournament with just plain chess.

The point? Even if mirrors are really good, they do not make the game better in a competitive sense. Shogi and Xiangqi are pretty good board games but a tournament isn't necessarily better if you add them in.

But are they necessarily worse?

The new player base which SNF brought also raised the hacker population in auto as well. Most of them bought the game for 5 bucks and insta downloaded the hax scripts, I witness enormous drop-maphack rate which I haven't seen before. Of course my observation is not scientific and 100% true but is this a coincidence?

Just to raise the player population and make SNF happy adding a weird matching option ( weird for COH theme ) into this masterpiece doesn't seem right to me. Less is more.

The new player base which SNF brought also raised the hacker population in auto as well. Most of them bought the game for 5 bucks and insta downloaded the hax scripts, I witness enormous drop-maphack rate which I haven't seen before. Of course my observation is not scientific and 100% true but is this a coincidence?

Just to raise the player population and make SNF happy adding a weird matching option ( weird for COH theme ) into this masterpiece doesn't seem right to me. Less is more.

1.)Saying that players that got aware of COH through SNF are the ones that increased the amount of hacks in automatch is a rediculous statement. What a weird conclusion ... Following that logic you could take ANY indepdendent event that overlapped in time and make it responsible for ANY state that appeared around the same time. ... I am sure the fact that my phone rang at 5pm is responsible for a car crash on the opposite site of the world at the same time.

It is much more likely that the amount of hackers increased due to the lack of counter measures by Relic, since there is no community manager, and the focus shifted to COH2.

2.)You obviously didnt understand the point.

It is totally not about making SNF happy. It is about the fact t hat events like SNF are rare, because of the rediculous amount of time that goes into it. Making the organization of competitive events easier and more fair should result in a much higher number of different events, making the eSports scene as a whole a lot bigger than it was for vCOH. The higher amount of eSport events will attract a bigger community to join the fun, as a player or visitor.

One aspect that would certainly improve is the wait time on the auto-matching .Sorry to take the COHO example , the constant shifting between commanders and waiting for 25-30 mins for games at times was annoying , This was further worsened by the fact that majority wanted to play axis .

Whatever decision is taken , hope its made to make the gaming experience better . Mirror matches or no mirror matches , Faction choice or no faction choice - It should have a better and faster match making .

You make a very good point Onkelsam, but I have to point out that it seems as though this really boils down to map/faction balance, not whether or not mirrors are in the game. Mirrors are just some duck tape over a deeper issue.

I should stress that I'm no longer really opposed to them, I just vehemently disagree that they have any intrinsic benefit to competitive multiplayer.

You misunderstood, I didin't mean SNF is the reason of hack noobs- I say high popularity/population doesn't always mean nice community and player base. So supporting Mirror matchmaking for higher Population/Popularity/E-sport blabla doesn't grant you excellent game play. What I mean is "Mirrors -> better SNF--> better/higher player base--. awesomeness --. yay ^^" is wrong in that matter.

Popularity, high sales, big player base is not a player's concern but Relic's/Sega's. So pls take the case from player perspective, arguments which underlines above mentioned themes sounds like a CM speaking on behalf of his employers.

It is much more likely that the amount of hackers increased due to the lack of counter measures by Relic, since there is no community manager, and the focus shifted to COH2.

I asked that question in "Get back Lynx to COH" thread noone responded; so if this is written in his job description why we suffer for months about the enormous amount of hackings? GR Fair Play was doing a great job but even they are overwhelmed cause it was a voluntary job, but there's someone who is paid for it. His absence can be counted by weeks, he was in charge almost a year or something, so? I can also share links in Facebook, chat in streams, it's not a hard thing.

You misunderstood, I didin't mean SNF is the reason of hack noobs- I say high popularity/population doesn't always mean nice community and player base. So supporting Mirror matchmaking for higher Population/Popularity/E-sport blabla doesn't grant you excellent game play. What I mean is "Mirrors -> better SNF--> better/higher player base--. awesomeness --. yay ^^" is wrong in that matter.

Popularity, high sales, big player base is not a player's concern but Relic's/Sega's. So pls take the case from player perspective, arguments which underlines above mentioned themes sounds like a CM speaking on behalf of his employers.

So you say you want a niche game, just so you have a small community without hacking? I disagree and rather vote for better anti-cheating measures, which hopefully will be a bonus of COH2 being an exclusive Steam game.

I want a huge eSports scene, because it increases the entertainment factor of a game, beyond playing it yourself. The popularity of SNF is just one example, to proof that i am not the only one who enjoys such formats.
I hate to bring SC in here as an argument, but part of the reason SC is so popular, is because the esports scene is appealing to a lot of followers.

I asked that question in "Get back Lynx to COH" thread noone responded; so if this is written in his job description why we suffer for months about the enormous amount of hackings? GR Fair Play was doing a great job but even they are overwhelmed cause it was a voluntary job, but there's someone who is paid for it. His absence can be counted by weeks, he was in charge almost a year or something, so? I can also share links in Facebook, chat in streams, it's not a hard thing.

I just brought in that argument, because your conclusion was weird. Relic has just moved on to their next game, which is legit after 6 years and no money income from COH1. Apart from this, it is a different topic that belongs elsewhere.

If we want e-sport to be a bigger part in COH2 than in COH1, then yes. Because mirror matches make the organization of tournaments and other competition a LOT easier.

At the moment you are somewhat forced to do a Best of 3 format. The first 2 games are necessary to define a parameter (VP lead) which then decides, who has the unfair advantage in game 3.
Not only is this unfair in itself, but best of 3 matches are long! This makes it a lot more time consuming not only to play such tournaments, but also to organize them, because any bigger event expands over more than one day.
Leaques are almost impossible, cause they require a lot of different players to find an overlapping timewindow to play their games.
With mirror matches, best-of-1 games become totally fair. This lets us get rid of an articifial parameter (VP lead), and allows us to have more competition.

To implement mirrors into tournaments, they already have to be part of automatch, which is where the metagame evolves and strategies are developed. It goes hand in thand.
Put authenticity into singleplayer/custom games, but let the competitive part use its full potential!


Now there will be some people saying: "There is only a small bunch playing in tournaments, blablabla. Mirrors ruin it for everyone else, blablabla". But, this is the wrong perspective.
Events like Sunday Night Fights have shown how much of a followership is connected to such competitive events! All these people are involved, too. And the more of these events, the more visible COH2 will be, so it will grow.
You probably don't know how many new players the SNF shows brought to COH1. They jumped over it on the twitch.tv main page and wanted to play it themself. They post in the chat "what is this game called, it looks awesome". Additionally to advertising, this is how games get big!

while if you base a tournament on mirror matches except it will be a failure in esports measuring terms because significant portion of the fans wont watch it , it will require 1 match for the wehrmacht and one for the soviets and unless its played on a chessboard to ensure no map side favoring it will require 4 games istead of 3 , this is not shooting yourself in the foot its shooting yourself in the head with a bazooka or a panzerschreck to ensure you wont miss the hit . And even if you need 2 matches then you will need a third in case of a tie . And about the unfair conditions you discribe , i have watched a ton of tournaments , the fact that we have 4-6 players dominating them on a very consistent basis each year (sometimes they change because some of them stop ) proves that the ones who are the best end up in the top spots .

while if you base a tournament on mirror matches except it will be a failure in esports measuring terms because significant portion of the fans wont watch it , it will require 1 match for the wehrmacht and one for the soviets and unless its played on a chessboard to ensure no map side favoring it will require 4 games istead of 3 , this is not shooting yourself in the foot its shooting yourself in the head with a bazooka or a panzerschreck to ensure you wont miss the hit .

You entire post comes down to one simple point though: That a significant portion of the fans won't watch it.

What if... and I mean this as a big what if (brace yourselves!): They deliver Mirror Matches and they actually DONT suck? What if they aren't THAT badly balanced, and most people actually end up liking them?

But that is impossible in the eyes of nay-believers. Its not a huge possibility, but it is plausible at the very least. You simply cannot assume people are going to hate it, just because of what they say right now, based on an incomplete version. Hell, most of them haven't even played it!