Teamgame dominant meta

nerf sturms? nerf kubals? nerf volks? come on guys be serious here. Stuka dive bomb either needs a price increase, or better indicators where its guna land

It needs both. Its death critical is ridiculous. Tts damage and AOE are already overpowered according to its price when compare to ally equivalent. Even though the ally equivalent is weaker, ally ability has flare also. Thus, SDV has to be the same.

I'm making this post give a glimpse about how we (the balance team) feel teamgame dominant meta could be changed to be more fun and more diverse.

Part of the reason I'm making this post is to openly declare our intentions to the community and get some feedback.

Preface

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Highest priority changes

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High priority cheese

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1v1-affecting cheese

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Good-to-have stuff

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I still remember you said the win rate on coh2 charts should be stable after a few weeks when people start to adapt to the new patch. But now, its already a month and the win rate of axis no matter in which mode is significantly higher. I think this should explain something?

nerf sturms? nerf kubals? nerf volks? come on guys be serious here. Stuka dive bomb either needs a price increase, or better indicators where its guna land

And 15 range death critical too the all infantry needs to go as well.

Haha nerf sturms because every game is sturmpios rushing across the map and building hoping. So yes nerf sturms dmg and repair speed so both sturmpios abuse and kubel spam is not a viable strat. ^^ And finally okw dominance will end.

You are just another allied fan boy.Brits are also rushing building + vickers and as OKW,you are screwed until ieig18 comes. Brits and WFA armies should get repair nerf,not only OKW. Stand fast should be nerfed ASAP cause they can repair faster than 2 sturm pio with flames and 1 ieig 18 can damage it(if is braced)

You are just another allied fan boy.Brits are also rushing building + vickers and as OKW,you are screwed until ieig18 comes. Brits and WFA armies should get repair nerf,not only OKW. Stand fast should be nerfed ASAP cause they can repair faster than 2 sturm pio with flames and 1 ieig 18 can damage it(if is braced)

Thats a bold statement from someone who's playercard states you play axis, axis with axis and axis. My playercard states on the other hand that I have around equal rank with every faction ^^. So this makes you a pathetic axis fanboy and me a neutral player with unskewed point of view.

And that point of view is simple, if you want 2v2 balanced nerf sturmpios early damage and repair speed.

Did I miss something? Did the last patch remove Soviet T2? Or why do you literally ever game see Penals into 120 mm into T34-85 spam? Only in a fraction of games you might see Dshka and Sherman spam, a totally interesting and fun meta... not.

Did I miss something? Did the last patch remove Soviet T2? Or why do you literally ever game see Penals into 120 mm into T34-85 spam? Only in a fraction of games you might see Dshka and Sherman spam, a totally interesting and fun meta... not.

It's because:
- conscripts suck
In T2:
- Maxim suck
- Mortar worse than overnerf American M1 (In auto fire)
- Only ZiS does its job
What will happen if you combine a sucker unit? That's right - you lose.

Well guys, the discussion is hot and let me add something to it. My guess is that most people are wrong saying "nerf %unit name%, it's op". The problem is not within the units but within the meta. All factions require complete rebalance.
First of all game should move away from early/mid/late-game-factions concept. This is cancer, that is killing the game, because you can always say "well, %faction name% is strong in late game, lo lets nerf early game units". Nope. It's a bad way way of balancing thing. Every fraction should be viable at any phase of the game.
Still, all factions shouldn't play the same. If US is good at infantry, maybe there should be more types of infantry units with their specific roles? Maybe if Ostheer is good at tanks, there should be an emphasis on vehicles in every phase of game?
The idea is to make factions have their strong and weak sides without a link to early/mid/late game. This unique factional feature should pass through the whole game.
I do understand, that my idea is something, that lays far from reality, but maybe instead of breaking some units from patch to patch there should be some other way to make CoH 2 better
Everything above is my humble point of view, and it is open for critique.

Well guys, the discussion is hot and let me add something to it. My guess is that most people are wrong saying "nerf %unit name%, it's op". The problem is not within the units but within the meta. All factions require complete rebalance.
First of all game should move away from early/mid/late-game-factions concept. This is cancer, that is killing the game, because you can always say "well, %faction name% is strong in late game, lo lets nerf early game units". Nope. It's a bad way way of balancing thing. Every fraction should be viable at any phase of the game.
Still, all factions shouldn't play the same. If US is good at infantry, maybe there should be more types of infantry units with their specific roles? Maybe if Ostheer is good at tanks, there should be an emphasis on vehicles in every phase of game?
The idea is to make factions have their strong and weak sides without a link to early/mid/late game. This unique factional feature should pass through the whole game.
I do understand, that my idea is something, that lays far from reality, but maybe instead of breaking some units from patch to patch there should be some other way to make CoH 2 better
Everything above is my humble point of view, and it is open for critique.

+1.

Many of us have gotten hoarse trying to argue this point for the last couple years.

First of all game should move away from early/mid/late-game-factions concept.

This concept is one of the things together with the ressource system that makes coh have so much flow compared to other RTS
Secondly, every faction is viable at any point, some just require more or less micro and macro at different stages of the game to be successfull
Other than that, welcome to the community

It's because:
- conscripts suck
In T2:
- Maxim suck
- Mortar worse than overnerf American M1 (In auto fire)
- Only ZiS does its job
What will happen if you combine a sucker unit? That's right - you lose.

You forgot to mention:

-Penals - Terminators that dominate early game and scale well into mid/late game, possess anti-tank, can blow up bunkers, hqs, caches, decrewed team weapons, garrisons, etc.
-Scout car aka free OKW raping (thanks for taking the Faust away, I can still try to use my Raketen haha)
-Sniper behind Penals = what do you want to do without spawning cancer infantry in nearby houses?

First of all game should move away from early/mid/late-game-factions concept. This is cancer

Good first post

This concept is one of the things together with the ressource system that makes coh have so much flow compared to other RTS

No. It's the concept of initiative windows, not being 'strong' at any time.

I've been playing since beta, so many memories of things tweaked and changed over the years...

I can't recall though - Why have Conscripts never been treated like the core infantry they are? The Penals have lost their flavour as well as a sensible game role lately. If light AT is such an issue why not open up a single anti-tank rifle option on Cons, locked behind the AT grenade or something.Or even on Engineers. Allow Penals to be the demo-charge-lobbing, good medium range anti-infantry suicide squads they ought to be. Leave the flamethrower off of them if need be.

KV 1 tank also needs love, it's such an iconic Soviet tank! Make it be a great anvil like the Churchill! Though it's in a "dead" commander anyway. Have we ever had official comment on whether Commanders will ever be shuffled or tweaked properly?

Demos that spotted with minesweeper should be unable to explode. Only change needed for demo charge is this.

I've been playing since beta, so many memories of things tweaked and changed over the years...

I can't recall though - Why have Conscripts never been treated like the core infantry they are? The Penals have lost their flavour as well as a sensible game role lately. If light AT is such an issue why not open up a single anti-tank rifle option on Cons, locked behind the AT grenade or something.Or even on Engineers. Allow Penals to be the demo-charge-lobbing, good medium range anti-infantry suicide squads they ought to be. Leave the flamethrower off of them if need be.

That functionality was reserved for being packaged into a sellable commander. Much like most of the much needed components of the stock armies: reserved for DLC.

The old 270 mp Penals were perfect for being a doctrinal unit. The old old 360mp Penals were devastating, although the the 3+ second command delay made their satchels pretty strong back then too.

The AT satchel functionality was a great addition for Penals, though it probably always needed to be locked behind an upgrade. (It also made PTRS unnecessary.) My personal suggestion was to merge molotovs and AT nades into a single grenade package. Penal Satchels and Engineer Demo charges would then be locked behind a new demolitions package upgrade to replace the open slot at the HQ.

There's been plenty of changes to this game, but very few of them have managed to scratch what makes this game such a problem child for being competitive.

Well guys, the discussion is hot and let me add something to it. My guess is that most people are wrong saying "nerf %unit name%, it's op". The problem is not within the units but within the meta. All factions require complete rebalance.
First of all game should move away from early/mid/late-game-factions concept. This is cancer, that is killing the game, because you can always say "well, %faction name% is strong in late game, lo lets nerf early game units". Nope. It's a bad way way of balancing thing. Every fraction should be viable at any phase of the game.
Still, all factions shouldn't play the same. If US is good at infantry, maybe there should be more types of infantry units with their specific roles? Maybe if Ostheer is good at tanks, there should be an emphasis on vehicles in every phase of game?
The idea is to make factions have their strong and weak sides without a link to early/mid/late game. This unique factional feature should pass through the whole game.
I do understand, that my idea is something, that lays far from reality, but maybe instead of breaking some units from patch to patch there should be some other way to make CoH 2 better
Everything above is my humble point of view, and it is open for critique.

+1

But... will probably never happen in coh2. Coh3 maybe?

That functionality was reserved for being packaged into a sellable commander. Much like most of the much needed components of the stock armies: reserved for DLC.

Ah of course, it's easy to forget these days that the Soviets originally completely relied on commanders for their more specialised infantry that were essential to the entire faction. Which is sadly why it seems they struggle to stay relevant/balanced these days... Because they're trying to make base Soviets a regular jack-of-all, in addition to those call ins?

Ah of course, it's easy to forget these days that the Soviets originally completely relied on commanders for their more specialised infantry that were essential to the entire faction. Which is sadly why it seems they struggle to stay relevant/balanced these days... Because they're trying to make base Soviets a regular jack-of-all, in addition to those call ins?

That's true. I was gonna say that ost is like that, but soviets were supposed to rely on elite call-in infantry supported by shitty cheap conscripts. RIP that idea. Mostly cuz WFA and brits.

You might want to give usf some early at options do deal with kubel spam. You can easily bully usf off of fuel points with 2 kubels in maps like steppes. This strategy, when successful, has a snowballing effect for okw. If someone is brainlessly spamming one unit and beating you, something is wrong with counter play.

So you want to fix usf's late game? How to you propose you do that?

This problem I have brought out in official forum 2-3years before when the time kubel even have suppression. USF is forced to lose the early game fuel point in 4v4 is fucking retardly design. And all the people on forum just think the kubel is fine and answer me. "l2p and l2 flank".i dont even understand how to flank multiple moving suppression platform while having less squad on the field until now .Now this problem isn't as serious as before, but the majority of players in this forum is simply axis-favoured, though I really dont understand how vet0 at nade on usf will break the game when I proposed 2 years before. It just punish bad play of kubel. I simply hope there isn't a vote on the balance change of team game meta this time, otherwise It will simply nerf ally and buff axis again that make ally totally unplayable in team game.

About USF, the complain are real.

VS OKW = Kubel spam works well because RM don´t do shit vs it. In 4vs4 vs OKW it is better to build 2xRE first to make sure you can counter kubels. The problem is that you get rekt soon after by ST/Volks.

VS OS = HMG spam, you simply can´t flank on 90% of maps

VS OS+OKW = its depend on your team mate faction but still, do not expect a UC to counter 2x or 3x Kubel start. M3 does better but come later, and a single gren squad backing the kubel is enough to stop you.

Solutions are multiple,
1- Replace ST by volks as OKW starting unit will reduce the kubel spam since you need to build a ST to repair them.
2- Put back the kubel where it belongs, a low armor unit with a MG to defend itself, not mean to be offensive or only as a long range support.

2 Kubels plus the SP (with it's LONG and short range damage)just rapes USF early game. OKW caps and owns fuel, GG. Anybody that doesn't think this is an issue is delirious or just an Axis fanboy. By the time USF gets any AT or lights for the Kubels, it's too late and will face Ratekans, Luchs and/or Leig spam.

At least give REs the volleyfire back, FFS. To quell off the SPs, then USF could deal with the dual Kubels, but can't do Kubels AND SPs.

2 Kubels plus the SP (with it's LONG and short range damage)just rapes USF early game. OKW caps and owns fuel, GG. Anybody that doesn't think this is an issue is delirious or just an Axis fanboy. By the time USF gets any AT or lights for the Kubels, it's too late and will face Ratekans, Luchs and/or Leig spam.

At least give REs the volleyfire back, FFS. To quell off the SPs, then USF could deal with the dual Kubels, but can't do Kubels AND SPs.

Try Wc51 + Rifle