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russian armor

Brummbär overperforming

27 Apr 2017, 16:20 PM
#21
avatar of Dyzfunction

Posts: 73



solve the call-in problem.


Do you have a final solution for the call-in question?
27 Apr 2017, 16:25 PM
#22
avatar of ferwiner
Donator 11

Posts: 2885



Except following things are not possible with the Ostwind:
- wiping sqauds instantly
- guaranteed model kill with each shot
- can frontally counter AT guns on range 60 (!) thanks to bunker busting barrage.
- survives 4 pak shots
- uneven terrain or fences dont bother the gun
- can shoot over shotblockers


Well, your point is much more understandable now. But you have to keep in mind that this is the result of many patches trying to make brummbar a viable tool in 1v1.

What would you propose to acheive these 3 goals at the same time:
- make brummbar less viable in 4v4,
- make brummbar more seen in 1v1 - accessibility is the issue here IMO,
- keep it as a better late game choice than stug e in any game mode?
27 Apr 2017, 16:30 PM
#23
avatar of Dangerous-Cloth

Posts: 2066

Very strong in 2v2 and up. Rarely seen in 1v1 as is Tier 4. Plz lelic, make dozer gr8 again
aaa
27 Apr 2017, 16:52 PM
#24
avatar of aaa

Posts: 1487

double heavy is not allowed. But brum with tiger is exactly that.
27 Apr 2017, 17:28 PM
#25
avatar of voltardark

Posts: 976



That's because you also used the Elefant commander.

With one shot, half health is gone. Brummbar can somehow penetrate tanks and then they need to run away.

If you think that Brummbar & Elefant is OP, wait till you try Elefant & Hulldown Ostwind, lol. Best thing is that you don't even have to tech and you also get Stugs from the same building.

Guys, it's the Elefant that's OP; not the Brummbar.



Elephant are really nothing to worry about.

The (non doctrinal) Brummbar is a masterpiece. Put 2 panzershrecks/racks around and no tank destroyers will reach it. No need to anything else. And it can have smoke...

It's just need to be doctrinal. Don't nerf.

:)
27 Apr 2017, 18:16 PM
#26
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072



That's because you also used the Elefant commander.

With one shot, half health is gone. Brummbar can somehow penetrate tanks and then they need to run away.

If you think that Brummbar & Elefant is OP, wait till you try Elefant & Hulldown Ostwind, lol. Best thing is that you don't even have to tech and you also get Stugs from the same building.

Guys, it's the Elefant that's OP; not the Brummbar.



I don't think the elephant is OP. I think Jaeger armor doctrine is OP with scopes and stuka added to the powerful elephant. Elephant amazing in team games because 90% of the time the opponents don't work together to take it down. A flanked elephant is a dead elephant.

In 3s and 4s this problem just compounds.

I gotta try that hull down ostwind... I've only done it once and I remember Bofors ROF and panther range :D
27 Apr 2017, 18:26 PM
#27
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742


I gotta try that hull down ostwind... I've only done it once and I remember Bofors ROF and panther range :D


Hulldown is a nice ability, however it is essentially a beacon for indirect fire, which ostwinds are quite vulnerable too.

Ostwinds are very flimsy, which isn't quite mitigated by hulldown.

But if your opponent is making repeated frontal pushes without flanking and with primarily infantry, then sure it's an effective ability.
27 Apr 2017, 19:10 PM
#28
avatar of Garrett

Posts: 309 | Subs: 1

You have to consider though that the Brummbär needs a lot of micro due to ground attack. It is also very expensive and comes quite late, plus it offers no real at. The problem is that the Ostwind in general is very disappointing, while the Brummbär is actually very effective versus infantry. In addition, all those units (like the Sherman Bulldozer) are very inconsistent, they either do nothing or wipe a whole squad out of nowhere.
27 Apr 2017, 19:28 PM
#29
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450



iirc bunker-busting barrage has 80 range.

The point is, with the Elefant commander you can't even use AT guns in the first place. All their veterancy is gone when Dive Bomb is called in.

What you're describing here is the entire Elefant doctrine being OP; not the Brummbar. OST late-game is a completely different story without Elefant commander/JU-87; those other doctrines need the Brummbar to fulfil that role.

And no; USF non-doc late-game is just hopeless; there's no need bringing that faction's name up in a late-game discussion.



Hey, can you guys give the m8 some type of delayed explosive barrage(like on the mortar half-track),so I can use paratroopers and not have to worry about a guarded pak 43 hiding behind a shot blocker.The commander has no arty to take it out and the majors arty does not do the trick. Rifle company also has the same issue. Delayed explosive will make it avoidable by mobile units.
27 Apr 2017, 19:40 PM
#31
avatar of LimaOscarMike

Posts: 440



This is a clear-cut case of the Elefant being OP. Try the same strategy without an Elefant commander, and see how that goes for you.

Throw something that can handle infantry decently together with the Elefant and you have an uncounterable strategy for 4v4.

Without the Elefant both Soviets and British have the right (non-doc) late-game tools necessary to dislodge you (SU-85, Katyusha, any non-Centaur British tank).


but we can't touch heavy tank destroyer without affect 1v1 2v2 mode right especially 1v1

i remember once jadgetiger used to get crew shock when they get hit from rear armor is that a glitch or somthing ? as far as i remember i've always solve Jadgetiger problem in 3v3 4v4 easily but scared the hell out when fight against the elefant

but i have no idea what it look like in 1v1 back in that day :D



Hey, can you guys give the m8 some type of delayed explosive barrage(like on the mortar half-track),so I can use paratroopers and not have to worry about a guarded pak 43 hiding behind a shot blocker.The commander has no arty to take it out and the majors arty does not do the trick. Rifle company also has the same issue. Delayed explosive will make it avoidable by mobile units.


major arty is what directly counter to Pak 43. i wish i can show you plenty of replay i have to deal with it ,so let say try to vet up major to vet2 then try to spot them and call in the barrage and that is. you only need 2 shot to land directly on Pak43 to get rid of them and i'd say this arty barrage we talking about pretty accurate
27 Apr 2017, 20:09 PM
#32
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450



but we can't touch heavy tank destroyer without affect 1v1 2v2 mode right especially 1v1

i remember once jadgetiger used to get crew shock when they get hit from rear armor is that a glitch or somthing ? as far as i remember i've always solve Jadgetiger problem in 3v3 4v4 easily but scared the hell out when fight against the elefant

but i have no idea what it look like in 1v1 back in that day :D



major arty is what directly counter to Pak 43. i wish i can show you plenty of replay i have to deal with it ,so let say try to vet up major to vet2 then try to spot them and call in the barrage and that is. you only need 2 shot to land directly on Pak43 to get rid of them and i'd say this arty barrage we talking about pretty accurate


It sometimes works, but it is not a direct counter and it is unreliable.I want Usf to be more open to different commander options in team games. I would like to see what Mr.smith thinks or see if he would like to have a discussion about this idea. The ''no they can't have it'' will only lead to flame wars. I want to discuss the pros and cons on balance from changes like this. I do not want the m8 to be an anti everything unit, i want it to have some counter-play mechanic (moving). A very long cool down (let's say 2 minutes) would keep it from being spammed all over the map.
27 Apr 2017, 20:47 PM
#33
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930

1st. Brummbar is kinda of ridiculous right now, It has too much front armor, can one shot AT guns AND on top of that it can do a LOT of damage to medium tanks. Then you add their movement speed that is quite good for such unit and you have a recipe for disaster.

Not that the unit is broken, but it needs tweaking, its so frustrating when their only counter is tank destroyers but even then TDs have trouble penetrating the armor.
27 Apr 2017, 22:07 PM
#34
avatar of LimaOscarMike

Posts: 440



It sometimes works, but it is not a direct counter and it is unreliable.I want Usf to be more open to different commander options in team games. I would like to see what Mr.smith thinks or see if he would like to have a discussion about this idea. The ''no they can't have it'' will only lead to flame wars. I want to discuss the pros and cons on balance from changes like this. I do not want the m8 to be an anti everything unit, i want it to have some counter-play mechanic (moving). A very long cool down (let's us say 2 minutes) would keep it from being spammed all over the map.


Ok i'll leave you then. but you probably know that high explosive round does stunt and damage pretty much as cost as tullip missie right. not many people have know this because it is hard to happen since mortar half track need to get pretty close with HE round and... tank move pretty fast but with how M8 shoot his project tile will be absolutely another story :D:D

me my self used to suggest about SU-76 to have some specific anti garrison building like buff damage multipler against garrison building to it barrage ability(how should i spell) or even nerf rate of fire and change barrage ability to automatic Zis barrage that fire 3-4 round within ability circle if there is any unit spot in that circle like Overwatch from vCOH and cost more ammu like 50 muni. the problem is both light tank destroyer are spamable right now
27 Apr 2017, 23:46 PM
#35
avatar of Mr.Flush

Posts: 450



Ok i'll leave you then. but you probably know that high explosive round does stunt and damage pretty much as cost as tullip missie right. not many people have know this because it is hard to happen since mortar half track need to get pretty close with HE round and... tank move pretty fast but with how M8 shoot his project tile will be absolutely another story :D:D

me my self used to suggest about SU-76 to have some specific anti garrison building like buff damage multipler against garrison building to it barrage ability(how should i spell) or even nerf rate of fire and change barrage ability to automatic Zis barrage that fire 3-4 round within ability circle if there is any unit spot in that circle like Overwatch from vCOH and cost more ammu like 50 muni. the problem is both light tank destroyer are spamable right now


Thanks, mate :D
I wish more balance discussions were as civil as this.

Now, on the axis vs allied side there are other things that bother me too. Destroying forward hqs can be difficult as Okw early game. This is probably not the right place to post this, but i brought this up so everyone has something to relate to. Also, mortar pits can force you into a doctrine with Ostheer. I would like more freedom when it comes to doctrine choice. I do not want someone to be forced to choose a doctrine just to burn down a forward hq to the ground. Personally, I want the game to feel good all around. Maybe the idea of non-doctrinal
counters to cheese strategies, could help the game feel less frustrating for all players across all factions. :D
28 Apr 2017, 00:30 AM
#36
avatar of LoopDloop

Posts: 3053

The primary issue with the infantry-demolishers class of vehicles is that they tend to overshoot a lot if left to their own devices, which leads to an even greater performance gap.

This makes an entire array of already useful units appear as useless. I've lost the count on how many times somebody has said Brummbar is useless.

Before you judge them, the list of people that complain about the "uselessness" of the Brummbar even include some of the top-most players (perhaps they play too much 1v1 and they never tech up?).

We've addressed this issue with the Stug-E already (its shots are now perfectly centered around the impact point regardless of whether you use attack ground or not), and will be doing it for all infantry demolishers.

On-topic, the Brummbar is OK for its price, and we will be adjusting the competition to its performance.

It's the whole supporting web that comes with the Brummbar (Dive Bomb, Stugs, Elefant) that make it overperform for the game modes you are concerned with, rather than the Brummbar itself. Finally, another issue that heavily skews the perception of Brummbar in these modes are:
- OKW's massively OP repair speeds (try repairing Brummbars with OST Pioneers)
- OKW's overall late-game performance

Ostheer spends the entire game being reactive/defensive; T4 needs to offer the kind of tools that let OST go on the offensive, otherwise OST will be a lame faction to play.

OST infantry can't go toe-to-toe with allied infantry; and you can't force OST to crutch on the MG42 for the duration of an entire game.


Brummbar + elefant is a little broken in my experience. I use that and the spotting scopes/stuka bomb doctrine for maximum cheese. However, (besides stupid OP stuka strike) it's all pretty counterbalanced by accessibility and mobility. The brummbar could use a little more consistency between roflstomp attack ground mode and useless autoattack mode though. It's like ye olde PIATs.
28 Apr 2017, 02:52 AM
#37
avatar of Grumpy

Posts: 1954



Well, your point is much more understandable now. But you have to keep in mind that this is the result of many patches trying to make brummbar a viable tool in 1v1.

What would you propose to acheive these 3 goals at the same time:
- make brummbar less viable in 4v4,
- make brummbar more seen in 1v1 - accessibility is the issue here IMO,
- keep it as a better late game choice than stug e in any game mode?


Ost should have had a tier structure like Soviets. One less tier to Brummbaer would make it a lot more accessible. Making it badly OP once you get it just screws over balance on 2v2+.

28 Apr 2017, 04:26 AM
#38
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 930


I do not want the m8 to be an anti everything unit



you mean like LeIGs are right now? :luvDerp:
28 Apr 2017, 08:17 AM
#39
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

Actually the M8A1 is the only stock unit that keep USF alive late game.
28 Apr 2017, 09:07 AM
#40
avatar of ullumulu

Posts: 2243

Hmm...i think the brummbär is not much better than other tanks.

a comet do the same work....in most cases even better than the brummbär.

it wipes units often with the first shot, can easily pentrate most tanks, have good armor, is fast, have turrent, is easy spamable...

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