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Flame Hetzer

29 Aug 2018, 13:59 PM
#61
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1



The sum of fuel would be about equal to the T-70, which is comparibly deadly. I don't see why it couldn't act as a more expensive Luchs as an intermediate light/medium vehicle. It would also be helpful if you made a constructive argument or proposal instead of this nonsense.


Cuz USF T1 would be completely fucked up? I let your try to "soft counter" it with a M15 and Zooks.

You can't be serious about your argumentation, this is exactly why the Ostwind has been tied to T3, and you want to make the same error again.
29 Aug 2018, 14:03 PM
#62
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

The sum of fuel would be about equal to the T-70, which is comparibly deadly. I don't see why it couldn't act as a more expensive Luchs as an intermediate light/medium vehicle. It would also be helpful if you made a constructive argument or proposal instead of this nonsense.


Durability. DBP specced the Flame Hetzer as a superior AI unit to the Panzer IV at the cost of AT capability. It sits in the niche of the Ostwind, not the Luchs.
29 Aug 2018, 14:47 PM
#63
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2458 | Subs: 1

Flame hertzer is actually a very good unit if you factor in the low price of 90 fuel. I would use it all the time if it wasnt stuck in Firestorm Doctrine. Firestorm is just not good enough overall.
29 Aug 2018, 16:56 PM
#64
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

Flame hetzer should become a call-in unit again (as some other specialized unit in doctrines that do not provide both AI and AI tanks) able to calling with premium at certain CP or when T4 is placed for normal price. The unit should still be available for call-in even when t4 is destroyed.

It could also see a rear armor increase since many times it has to exposes its rear armor due to lack of turret and sort range.
29 Aug 2018, 17:45 PM
#65
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 3029 | Subs: 3



The sum of fuel would be about equal to the T-70, which is comparibly deadly. I don't see why it couldn't act as a more expensive Luchs as an intermediate light/medium vehicle. It would also be helpful if you made a constructive argument or proposal instead of this nonsense.



do you have any idea of how OP Hetzers are (in the hands of a good player) if the opponent only has AT guns and snares as sole anti tank source?
29 Aug 2018, 18:03 PM
#66
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

do you have any idea of how OP Hetzers are (in the hands of a good player) if the opponent only has AT guns and snares as sole anti tank source?


Welcome to the Axis team where T70s can cause this kind of mayhem every match.

29 Aug 2018, 19:05 PM
#67
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 3029 | Subs: 3



Welcome to the Axis team where T70s can cause this kind of mayhem every match.



I didnt know that a T70 has 640 hitpoints and always takes out an AT gun frontally within 5 seconds since it ignores cover and has 0 RNG :/
29 Aug 2018, 19:17 PM
#68
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

I didn't know the Hetzer could run circles around ATGs and destroy infantry left and right or wipe retreating squads half the time either. But here we are. (Also as I've just tested it takes significantly longer than '5 seconds' to kill an ATG at max range and USF/UKF ATG have a fair chance of killing it before they die.)

I guess it was stupid of me to just assume it was logical for everyone that moving a unit to another tier does not mean it should retain all of its current performance.

So let me rephrase my original suggestion. Move Hetzer to T1 or T2 so it's available earlier and instead becomes a risk/reward choice between fast tech or possibly better map control. Nerf performance accordingly if needed. There we go, wasn't that hard now was it?
29 Aug 2018, 19:45 PM
#69
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3602 | Subs: 1

I didn't know the Hetzer could run circles around ATGs and destroy infantry left and right or wipe retreating squads half the time either. But here we are. (Also as I've just tested it takes significantly longer than '5 seconds' to kill an ATG at max range and USF/UKF ATG have a fair chance of killing it before they die.)

I guess it was stupid of me to just assume it was logical for everyone that moving a unit to another tier does not mean it should retain all of its current performance.

So let me rephrase my original suggestion. Move Hetzer to T1 or T2 so it's available earlier and instead becomes a risk/reward choice between fast tech or possibly better map control. Nerf performance accordingly if needed. There we go, wasn't that hard now was it?


But still completely stupid, if you nerf the performance it becomes useless. If you keep it as it is, you completely screw any gameplay revolving around light vehicle. Do you remember why the Luchs has recieved those building time nerf?

29 Aug 2018, 21:19 PM
#70
avatar of Sander93

Posts: 3166 | Subs: 6

You mean the one that has been largely reverted by now? Yes I remember.

But hey I guess it's much better to keep the unit as it is now and never see it instead of trying some changes that might increase its popularity.
29 Aug 2018, 21:50 PM
#71
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

You mean the one that has been largely reverted by now? Yes I remember.

But hey I guess it's much better to keep the unit as it is now and never see it instead of trying some changes that might increase its popularity.

The unit is perfectly fine in itself.
Its doctrine is sub optimal.
And for a single unit to justify whole doctrine pick, it would have to be op.

Wouldn't it be better to make the doctrine appealing as a whole, then trying to op the unit?
29 Aug 2018, 22:06 PM
#72
avatar of Lago

Posts: 3260

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2018, 16:56 PMVipper
Flame hetzer should become a call-in unit again (as some other specialized unit in doctrines that do not provide both AI and AI tanks) able to calling with premium at certain CP or when T4 is placed for normal price. The unit should still be available for call-in even when t4 is destroyed.

It could also see a rear armor increase since many times it has to exposes its rear armor due to lack of turret and sort range.


A patch was cancelled because of how unpopular the call-in premium mechanic was.

CoH 2 simply doesn't have the UI to properly display the price premiums.
30 Aug 2018, 10:39 AM
#73
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post29 Aug 2018, 22:06 PMLago


A patch was cancelled because of how unpopular the call-in premium mechanic was.

CoH 2 simply doesn't have the UI to properly display the price premiums.

I am actually proposing something different:
1) The unit can be called-in for a price at CP
2) The unit can also be built for a lower price from a tech specific building

This solution fix a number of issues:
Makes the unit more relevant across mods where the timing of the unit changes with economy inflation.

In this case a F. Hezter only with CP would become irrelevant in large mods since powerful AT vehicles would be out. On the other hand F.Hezter would be better timed for small modes where if someone had invested in T4 would be better off waiting for them more versatile PIV.

F.hetzer ( and ostwind) would also be an option if the T4 building was lost.

This solution is good for specialised vehicles that either provide AI or AT and not for mainline tanks where they simply bypass tech cost.
30 Aug 2018, 18:54 PM
#74
avatar of Michalszym

Posts: 51

Only once did i use the hetzer with the power it can muster. i burned 3 squads of soviet infantry in a building. They melted in 4 seconds. But aside from that the hetzer is useles.
30 Aug 2018, 21:46 PM
#75
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

I think the main problem with Hetzer is that OKW lacks strong AT options if you spend the fuel.
30 Aug 2018, 22:01 PM
#76
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

I think the main problem with Hetzer is that OKW lacks strong AT options if you spend the fuel.

That depends on game mode.

2v2 and up you can cheeze puppchens so hard its not even funny.
1 Sep 2018, 08:50 AM
#77
avatar of Kurfürst

Posts: 144

It should need to have more frontal armor, with marginal side armor.

I would nerf to flame dot damage though, its quite ridiculus how things first do not die to this thing, then 2 seconds the lava lake created by it consumes everything.


It should be more consistent and should give you more ability to react. Right now even if you retreat you probably loose the unit to the lava.
1 Sep 2018, 10:28 AM
#78
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1096

I originally voted for underpowered.

However, I seem to do really well with the Hetzer these days. In truth I think it is the best of the flame vehicles (which isn't hard lets be honest) and I think a lot of players simply do not expect it.

I do play team games though so 1v1 will be vastly different.
1 Sep 2018, 10:28 AM
#79
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

It should need to have more frontal armor, with marginal side armor.

I would nerf to flame dot damage though, its quite ridiculus how things first do not die to this thing, then 2 seconds the lava lake created by it consumes everything.


It should be more consistent and should give you more ability to react. Right now even if you retreat you probably loose the unit to the lava.

1) There is no side armor in coh2, never was.
2) It doesn't need any more armor, because its not meant to fight anything that would be able to threaten it anyway.
3) That means you're retreating too late.
1 Sep 2018, 12:35 PM
#80
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1

...
I would nerf to flame dot damage though, its quite ridiculus how things first do not die to this thing, then 2 seconds the lava lake created by it consumes everything.


It should be more consistent and should give you more ability to react. Right now even if you retreat you probably loose the unit to the lava.


Imo making DOT available only via ability for all flame vehicles would help allot in balancing them.
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