I think that the changes should be fine, provided that the Sov AAHT gets a change.
What I would like to see is either:
1) Sov HT AA upgrade locked behind T4
2) Sov HT AA upgrade works like an OKW kubelwagon. This means that it must set up to take advantage of its full DPS and its ability to suppress, but can be countered by static AT as a result. On the move, the AAHT could do just terrible DPS (lower damage to make light vehicles a counter to an out of position AAHT) and no suppression.
Soviet T3 need cost increase or Ost T3 cost reduction!
19 Jul 2015, 16:41 PM
#21
4 
Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1
19 Jul 2015, 16:43 PM
#22
Posts: 1653
Non doctrinal Puma would do some good stuff and will give more flexibility. Although it will delay T3 even more. I'm more into T3 cost increase or T3 cost decrease for Ost
19 Jul 2015, 16:46 PM
#23
Posts: 589
You can't simply decrease the cost of Ost T3, with the units it has available in it. A big design decision of the patch was to increase light vehicle play.
At least with a Puma, or AT half track, the Ost player has the choice to stick it out with a PaK or go Puma with a delayed T3.
I kind of like Comm_Ash's #2 option though, or make the quad mount a little like the USF one (that Ost has been dealing with since forever). That would make it at least counterable.
At least with a Puma, or AT half track, the Ost player has the choice to stick it out with a PaK or go Puma with a delayed T3.
I kind of like Comm_Ash's #2 option though, or make the quad mount a little like the USF one (that Ost has been dealing with since forever). That would make it at least counterable.
19 Jul 2015, 16:50 PM
#24
Posts: 1486
Uhm, no. Soviet players just called in Guards
no thats a lie. Guards a no match to luchs and even to flak. They basicaly antii nfantry unit. Can help a bit vs light armor but dont counter it themselves.
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19 Jul 2015, 16:55 PM
#25
Posts: 1486
You can't simply decrease the cost of Ost T3, with the units it has available in it.
Thats right
The thing is that AT guns are hard to micro. You must micro supporting infatry with them. Medium tanks (on this stage) require A+click and no micro at all.
With no offense to anyone thats why tanks are more attractive to noobs like me than AT guns.
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19 Jul 2015, 16:55 PM
#26
Posts: 2561
Have you tried going for 2 222s yet? They should be able to handle a quad easily.
19 Jul 2015, 16:55 PM
#27
Posts: 1653
You can't simply decrease the cost of Ost T3, with the units it has available in it. A big design decision of the patch was to increase light vehicle play.
At least with a Puma, or AT half track, the Ost player has the choice to stick it out with a PaK or go Puma with a delayed T3.
I kind of like Comm_Ash's #2 option though, or make the quad mount a little like the USF one (that Ost has been dealing with since forever). That would make it at least counterable.
Have to disagree. While making it 30 fuel less it means that the tanks will roll out 2 mins earlies, which helps big time
19 Jul 2015, 16:56 PM
#28
4 Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1
Well i guess ill put the numbers up in here too...
(In BLUE are the costs to unlock their entire tech tree, and in GREEN, are the costs to rush for their LAST tier.)
SOV (Start with 50 Fuel)
40
80
90
50
260 - 210
Wehr (Start with 20 Fuel)
40
45
50
20
75
80
310 (Cannot realistically skip any tier buildings in a close game).
OKW (start with 40 fuel)
40
40
80
160+33.3% = 210 160
USF (Start with 15 Fuel)
50
60
120
230 - 170
You have already been told why this particular calculation is misleading. The correct comparison would be to compare Ostheer T3, USF T3, and Soviet T4. This is because Ostheer T4 gives you access to heavy armor while Ostheer T3 gives you access to mediums.
The cost to get mediums as Ostheer (T3) is:
15 (B1) - 20 (Start) + 40 (BP1) + 20 (B2) + 45 (BP2) + 75 (B3) = 175 fu
This value is very much in line with the time it takes to acquire other factions' medium tier. 5 slower than USF, 35 faster than Soviets.
Comparing T4 to Allied factions top tier, is comparing the time it takes to tech to a Panther to the time it takes to get a Sherman.
19 Jul 2015, 16:56 PM
#29
Posts: 1653
Have you tried going for 2 222s yet? They should be able to handle a quad easily.
The dps of the quad pushes even 2x 222s back
19 Jul 2015, 17:03 PM
#30
Posts: 2561
Then they should change that. Probably has to do with the buffs it got last patch. They should just reduce it's dps a bit. It's not really all that necessary with the increased suppression.
The dps of the quad pushes even 2x 222s back
The rest of T3 seems fine, I was able to destroy T-70s and SU-76s just fine with multiple 222s and a bit of flanking.
19 Jul 2015, 17:05 PM
#31
Posts: 1486
You have already been told why this particular calculation is misleading. The correct comparison would be to compare Ostheer T3, USF T3, and Soviet T4. This is because Ostheer T4 gives you access to heavy armor while Ostheer T3 gives you access to mediums.
The cost to get mediums as Ostheer (T3) is:
40 + 20 + 45 + 75 = 180 fu
This value is very much in line with the time it takes to acquire other factions' medium tier. 10 slower than USF, 30 faster than Soviets.
Comparing T4 to Allied factions top tier, is comparing the time it takes to tech to a Panther to the time it takes to get a Sherman.
Thank you.
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19 Jul 2015, 17:07 PM
#32
Posts: 760
why not buff the 222 to be able to counter soviet light vehicles in t3, the ost lacks a light vehicle and the 222 can fill the role.
19 Jul 2015, 17:08 PM
#33
Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1
Have you tried going for 2 222s yet? They should be able to handle a quad easily.
A 222 is no match for the quad m5 even when it is at half health after eating a shell from an AT gun. I doubt that 2 222s will be the answer. The fact that the Main gun crit doesn't do anything on the M5 quad also does not help.
19 Jul 2015, 17:12 PM
#34
Posts: 54
Permanently BannedBut why is Ostheer still the most expensive nation teching wise? Why do all the nations get a starting fuel that covers their first building (USF get it for free as well) apart from Ostheer?
Why in godsname did they increase Ostheer teching even further? It makes no sense..
After all the positive changes, I just don't get this one.
Why in godsname did they increase Ostheer teching even further? It makes no sense..
After all the positive changes, I just don't get this one.
Soon the Jedi will be no more.
19 Jul 2015, 17:18 PM
#35
4 Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1
But why is Ostheer still the most expensive nation teching wise? Why do all the nations get a starting fuel that covers their first building (USF get it for free as well) apart from Ostheer?
Why in godsname did they increase Ostheer teching even further? It makes no sense..
After all the positive changes, I just don't get this one.
Ostheer starting fuel covers the cost of T1.
And USF starts with 15 fu, while LT tier costs 50. (unless you are talking about USF T0)
They increased Ostheer T3 cost because they pushed back the tech cost of all medium armor tiers. Look up 7 posts to see the correct comparison. (#28)
19 Jul 2015, 17:22 PM
#36
Posts: 54
Permanently Banned
Ostheer starting fuel covers the cost of T1.
And USF starts with 15 fu, while LT tier costs 50. (unless you are talking about USF T0)
They increased Ostheer T3 cost because they pushed back the tech cost of all medium armor tiers. Look up 7 posts to see the correct comparison. (#28)
You mean the post that explains that ostheer start with 20 fuel and their first building costs 40? Or am I seeing something different here?
Ostheer still has most expensive teching. And yes was talking about USF t0 (which I see as t1)
Soon the Jedi will be no more.
19 Jul 2015, 17:24 PM
#37
4 Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1
You mean the post that explains that ostheer start with 20 fuel and their first building costs 40? Or am I seeing something different here?
Ostheer still has most expensive teching. And yes was talking about USF t0 (which I see as t1)
Read what I wrote in response to said quote. And ostheer t2 is what costs 40 fu, not ostheer t1 (which is actually 15 I think)
19 Jul 2015, 17:24 PM
#38
Posts: 1486
Right now germs are supposed to counter t70s etc with T3 units pak with help of panzggrens.
It does require skill. Its not like rushing to panz4 for free win with A+click.
Before sovs was geting 1 zis and 1 guards specificaly to deal with OKW light armor. It was diffucult and widely considered to be OK.
And it was a coinflip cuz OKW could do mass infantry instead of luchs. So early zis investment becomes a waste in this case.
It does require skill. Its not like rushing to panz4 for free win with A+click.
Before sovs was geting 1 zis and 1 guards specificaly to deal with OKW light armor. It was diffucult and widely considered to be OK.
And it was a coinflip cuz OKW could do mass infantry instead of luchs. So early zis investment becomes a waste in this case.
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19 Jul 2015, 17:28 PM
#39
Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2
Permanently BannedWhats with all the fuss?
UsF AA HT always came early and has essentially the same effect as the m5. (if we ignore reinforcement)
Counter the m5 the same way you have countered the m15 for a year.
UsF AA HT always came early and has essentially the same effect as the m5. (if we ignore reinforcement)
Counter the m5 the same way you have countered the m15 for a year.
There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
19 Jul 2015, 17:30 PM
#40
4 Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1
Whats with all the fuss?
UsF AA HT always came early and has essentially the same effect as the m5. (if we ignore reinforcement)
Counter the m5 the same way you have countered the m15 for a year.
M5 has 360 degree arc, can fire on the move, and can reinforce.
You can't ignore one of the best parts of an HT
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