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russian armor

A Suggestion For Panther Balance

4 Feb 2015, 20:36 PM
#21
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053


In CoH2 the Panther is currently perfectly balanced. Previous patches showed us how useless it can become if it is turned down (even slightly).

It needs mobility as it lacks the range of other tank destroyers. With 60 range one could consider giving it less reverse speed.

So better don´t touch the Panther.


In previous patches, it has been showed that panthers coming out too early (like Ostheer once being able to go straight for T4 + panther fast enough to counter first armor) created issues. Also, in past patches where the panther could be "bad", Soviets were worse. Other than Windustry times and sniper clown car.

As for the second sentence, i would argue why it would have so much armor if speed makes up for having 10 less range than fragile armorless Allied TD. A repricing to go with that if need be.

Regardless, im an advocate against ROFLblitz creating 10 reverse speed (as in... They arent french tanks - thats a joke, not supposed to be offensive). Besides, this game isnt advanced enough to have a separate reverse speed, the same for side armor. So immersive...
4 Feb 2015, 20:43 PM
#22
avatar of RMMLz

Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1



I was joking about the secure mode part. But not the Blitz part. Why should the Panther be the fastest tank in the game by far, with the highest armor value of any Medium tank, plus the highest HP pool of any medium tank, PLUS the Penetration of constant HVAP Jackson rounds?

You remember when the Panther nerf first took place in vCOH2? That was for a reason. Then they simply reverted all the nerfs including to Blitz. Soo soo silly they should have just increased the Panthers craptastic ROF.

But we are back to need for speed adamantium Panther once again...


Pheeew. Well you are correct. Panther is a VERY VERY good unit (I don't wanna say OP), but the fact that you can't finish it off is what get me pissed. Blitzkrieg tactics should work like real life blitzkrieg, an offensive ability to encourage you to rush and flank the enemy (so they can flank you) instead of a free get away card.
4 Feb 2015, 20:58 PM
#23
avatar of What Doth Life?!
Patrion 27

Posts: 1664

Didn't the Panther only have one reverse gear to begin with? The Germans never intended on retreating.
4 Feb 2015, 21:15 PM
#24
avatar of James Hale

Posts: 574

Yeah, the Panther was painfully slow at reversing.
4 Feb 2015, 21:40 PM
#25
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

If your opponent is spamming Panthers get AT guns and AT grenades and laugh as he tries to use a Tank Hunter to kill infantry. Seriously there is really not all that much a panther can do about massed infantry, even a large amount of Zooks will fuck it up hard if you hit somewhere other than the front armor.

A person who over extendeds with Panthers is an idiot, and you should punish him with a nice AT grenade to the rear and some ZiS love.


Unless 2-3 Obers squads are approaching with that Panther. AT Gun can do a pudding then.

The problem with Panther is that it does not have any weak point.
Let's look at rest Tank Hunters.

SU - no turret, no MG, slow, easy to flank.
Jackson - glass cannon, useless on narrow maps when facing Jadgpanzer.
Elephnat & Jadgtiger - no turret, very, very slow, no MG
Panther - range between tanks and tank hunters, great armor, great penetration, MG, blitz making it a race tank, smoke. No weak points.
4 Feb 2015, 22:37 PM
#26
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Unless 2-3 Obers squads are approaching with that Panther. AT Gun can do a pudding then.

The problem with Panther is that it does not have any weak point.
Let's look at rest Tank Hunters.

SU - no turret, no MG, slow, easy to flank.
Jackson - glass cannon, useless on narrow maps when facing Jadgpanzer.
Elephnat & Jadgtiger - no turret, very, very slow, no MG
Panther - range between tanks and tank hunters, great armor, great penetration, MG, blitz making it a race tank, smoke. No weak points.


It's weak point is the fact it's armor outside the frontal is weak, if he is charging through your lines to get at your tanks throw some AT grenades to snare him, then hit him with AT guns and your Tank Destroyers.

If your opponent has 2-3 Obers just laugh in his face as that Panther will probably be his only AT, so when it dies because he overreached like an idiot he will be SOL and your mediums can eat his Obers. Seriously 3 Obers is insanely excessive.
4 Feb 2015, 22:46 PM
#27
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2



It's weak point is the fact it's armor outside the frontal is weak, if he is charging through your lines to get at your tanks throw some AT grenades to snare him, then hit him with AT guns and your Tank Destroyers.

If your opponent has 2-3 Obers just laugh in his face as that Panther will probably be his only AT, so when it dies because he overreached like an idiot he will be SOL and your mediums can eat his Obers. Seriously 3 Obers is insanely excessive.



Okey, I don't know how you are playing but chasing any tanks when you see AT guns and infantry in front of you is not something any decent player would do.

Weak point = rear armor? Really? You can say this about all tanks.
By they way 110 rear armor while Wolverine and Jackson have 120/130 front armor :lol:
Please, don't use such stupid arguments.

So how you want to shoot with AT gun if Obers will kill front-man all the time?
And 3 Obers is not something weird. Most of the time you can afford 2 squads at the moment your T4 is ready. OKW is floating with MP.
4 Feb 2015, 23:22 PM
#28
avatar of ThoseDeafMutes

Posts: 1026

Is it possible for Blitz ability to disable reversing?

Like, keep the speed, but rather than only applying extra forward speed and not helping the reverse speed (which is apparently impossible in the engine people are saying? lmao), if we could lock down reverse movement it would make it riskier. It would be useful in an offensive capacity, but to escape they would need to turn and face their rear armor or find an alternate side route to get out.

No more warp speed reverse to save Tigers and Panthers and utter nonsense like that.
4 Feb 2015, 23:45 PM
#29
avatar of daspoulos

Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1

Permanently Banned
Just like side armor, which would be a critical balancing factor, engines cannot work in reverse in the game due to the game engine design. Even though limiting blitzkrieg to only go forward would be the perfect balance decision it cannot be done. Try to think of a different way without gimping the tank too hard. Even so I find blitzkrieg more imbalanced on tigers and King tigers, the ability can simply be removed for them in place of other abilities. For tiger replace blitz with S-,ine launcher, for King tiger make it a long 50-60 range shot. Or sort of a hull down mode where the driver helps load shells making it immobile for a time but increased fire rate and like +5 range. But has a cooldown timer so it becomes very vulnerable to flanks due to slow turret speed and lack of movement.
4 Feb 2015, 23:59 PM
#30
avatar of braciszek

Posts: 2053

Just like side armor, which would be a critical balancing factor, engines cannot work in reverse in the game due to the game engine design. Even though limiting blitzkrieg to only go forward would be the perfect balance decision it cannot be done. Try to think of a different way without gimping the tank too hard. Even so I find blitzkrieg more imbalanced on tigers and King tigers, the ability can simply be removed for them in place of other abilities. For tiger replace blitz with S-,ine launcher, for King tiger make it a long 50-60 range shot. Or sort of a hull down mode where the driver helps load shells making it immobile for a time but increased fire rate and like +5 range. But has a cooldown timer so it becomes very vulnerable to flanks due to slow turret speed and lack of movement.


Panther temporary accuracy increase, perhaps usable on the move...

Still better than "blitz"
5 Feb 2015, 03:35 AM
#31
avatar of Storm267

Posts: 128




Okey, I don't know how you are playing but chasing any tanks when you see AT guns and infantry in front of you is not something any decent player would do.

Weak point = rear armor? Really? You can say this about all tanks.
By they way 110 rear armor while Wolverine and Jackson have 120/130 front armor :lol:
Please, don't use such stupid arguments.

So how you want to shoot with AT gun if Obers will kill front-man all the time?
And 3 Obers is not something weird. Most of the time you can afford 2 squads at the moment your T4 is ready. OKW is floating with MP.


I'd say 3 ober is weird for me, it's like 1-2. Also I think he was referring to if the tank over extends into your lines. Not for you to chase it into his.
5 Feb 2015, 03:59 AM
#32
avatar of Lichtbringer

Posts: 476

Is it possible for Blitz ability to disable reversing?

Like, keep the speed, but rather than only applying extra forward speed and not helping the reverse speed (which is apparently impossible in the engine people are saying? lmao), if we could lock down reverse movement it would make it riskier. It would be useful in an offensive capacity, but to escape they would need to turn and face their rear armor or find an alternate side route to get out.

No more warp speed reverse to save Tigers and Panthers and utter nonsense like that.


Technically I would think you could give them a new turnplan that doesn't involve any reversing. It seems easy to design a turn plan that lets the tank drive forward not matter where you click. I think it wouldn't be too hard to link it to an ability if they really wanted.


On the matter of the Panther. Please distinguish between the Ostheer and OKW one... -_-

And even the OKW Panther is not really OP when you take into account the whole faction I would say.
5 Feb 2015, 14:30 PM
#33
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

I think reducing the reversing speed of the Panther would make it really difficult to keep Axis armor in the field. The Jackson spam is already difficult to handle with Panthers, imagine if I cant reverse fast enough to escape.
5 Feb 2015, 14:50 PM
#34
avatar of JHeartless

Posts: 1637

I think reducing the reversing speed of the Panther would make it really difficult to keep Axis armor in the field. The Jackson spam is already difficult to handle with Panthers, imagine if I cant reverse fast enough to escape.


Like the old Tiger ace they arent such a problem in team games where you can have a Soviet drop Mark Vehicle on its ass and Pound it with a Jackson wall but in 1v1 they are a terror on the OKW faction. Because they literally can be the first tank and are cheaper than the first Sherman (if you went Captain or got ANY upgrade really).

If someone builds 2 Jacksons in a 1v1 to counter 1 Panther A move Shrek Blob in...
5 Feb 2015, 22:13 PM
#35
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

I think reducing the reversing speed of the Panther would make it really difficult to keep Axis armor in the field. The Jackson spam is already difficult to handle with Panthers, imagine if I cant reverse fast enough to escape.


don't put it in a situation where it can't; cover it with other units and use shot blockers. decreasing the reverse speed wouldn't suddenly make the tank over-extendable, it would just make it easier to do so. and really, it should apply to all tanks. although until i hear otherwise i'm going to assume it's not possible.
6 Feb 2015, 03:19 AM
#36
avatar of Storm267

Posts: 128



don't put it in a situation where it can't; cover it with other units and use shot blockers. decreasing the reverse speed wouldn't suddenly make the tank over-extendable, it would just make it easier to do so. and really, it should apply to all tanks. although until i hear otherwise i'm going to assume it's not possible.


I think he was going after the general concept of how much harder it is for Axis to replace tanks. Which I am constantly trying to figure out how that is the case but you do feel it during games. The fuel difference on some tanks compared to Allied is not alot but it still feels harder. While on USF on a strong fuel eco, shermans galore...though said shermans galore still got beat every day of the week and four times on sunday by the AXIS AT I faced (did not say i was good with usf).
6 Feb 2015, 10:14 AM
#37
avatar of Jaigen

Posts: 1130



Like the old Tiger ace they arent such a problem in team games where you can have a Soviet drop Mark Vehicle on its ass and Pound it with a Jackson wall but in 1v1 they are a terror on the OKW faction. Because they literally can be the first tank and are cheaper than the first Sherman (if you went Captain or got ANY upgrade really).

If someone builds 2 Jacksons in a 1v1 to counter 1 Panther A move Shrek Blob in...


A move your bar blob in response then. wtf is this bullshit of people losing their tanks to shreks.

Panther in the current state is fine. it has speed it has durability it has no dps whatsoever.
6 Feb 2015, 10:45 AM
#38
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

Any other nerf proposal except maybe reducing a little the reverse speed is bullshit. That tank is as expensive as nearly untouchable. Gsus, for such resources effort it deserves to be more than a futile pile of steel scrap. I remember what it was before fix, and I'm simply disgusted. Do you know people still prefer to use Tiger instead teching up and use panthers? It's more tangible. More than this, Tiger has an excelent punch against infantry too.
6 Feb 2015, 11:13 AM
#39
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 1003

Half reversing speed (for all vehicles) will improve and ballance tanks battles.
6 Feb 2015, 11:17 AM
#40
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Another golden thought from Jaigen.
Im sure you did not lose any vehicle cause of schreck since you are playing axis only.
But if you cant kill anything with schreck as axis its big l2p issue for you.

Also Schreck->bar blob->obers->sherman->panther->jackson->Schreck blob.
Its always for axis to have last word.

To the point. Panther is tank hunter without any weak points.
Yet the biggest issue is that OKW Panther comes to early.
I mean, its medium/late unit but when rushed it comes around 14-18min (depends on map control). In team games you can get Panther around 12min which is insane.
Usually OKW panther hits the field when OST can deploy Pz4. Thats the problem. You get Sherman to counter blob and 1-2mins after there is a Panther.
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