coh3 still a arrange team fk the solo ladder players game?

it should be a very nice game~

I once read in a MP piece of theirs that they plan to make their MM more "League Of Legends"-ish, meaning fixed seasons and then recalibrations, better algo for MM etc etc etc all corporate bullshit to be honest it remains to be seen what happens.

If AOE4 is anything to go by, it's quite shit.

Not being able to opt out of matching against arranged teams is absolute trash game design.
At least make it so it has no effect on ladder if it's in there.
There are different populations with different times so some players in one area of the world will get much easier games than those in others.

IE

If I play in the morning USA time east coast, I can win a decent ratio of 2v2 games and have decent matches.
If I play in the evening USA time east coast, the player pool is much lower and extremely compressed, if you are rank 300 2v2 you will get nothing but top 100 ladder arranged teams and it just sinks you ladder so you have to get crummier and crummier teammates which then sinks your win rate further.

Only players that like playing arranged against randoms are complete worms and its a waste of time for everyone.
Invest that time into queueing for decent matches instead by giving an opt out of arranged team matching instead of making a huge portion of the player pool just Elo farms for arranged team tryhards.

At least make it so it has no effect on ladder if it's in there.

+1

Randoms should get severely rewarded if they win against arranged teams, but nothing should happen to their playercard if they lose normally (only if they abandon their team early)

+1

Randoms should get severely rewarded if they win against arranged teams, but nothing should happen to their playercard if they lose normally (only if they abandon their team early)

This system probably won't work at all, because the only way for randoms would be up. What could happen though is to weight wins and losses accordingly. However, if you already have discovered the needed weight to make it fair, you can just set up a proper match up in the first place (i.e. lower skill arranged team vs higher skill randoms). They should have tons of data of CoH2 to make a decent guess for CoH3, how much stronger an arranged team is, just because they are "arranged" and not random.

They should have tons of data of CoH2 to make a decent guess for CoH3, how much stronger an arranged team is, just because they are "arranged" and not random.

Problem is not the AT themselfs, even randoms are capable of winning vs AT teams, when the match is fair skill vise. AT team surely will have an advantage, but its not the over the top one.

Particularly in CoH2 problem with AT teams is AT rank and the way its made is complete and utter BS. Game simply doesn't take into a consideration individual AT players ranks, which leads to MM being garbage.

There is no easy way to even fix this problem. You cant take individual ranks, because there are people who exclusively play AT and dont have solo rank, but you also cant have this "artificial" AT rank because for the game rank 14 AT consisting of top 10 players is equal to legit AT of rank 14 players for instance.

The only solution would probably be, instead of changing how AT works, change how randoms vs AT treated. Randoms should be rewarded more or pushed less when playing against AT teams for sure, at least it this would soften the unfairness of the MM.

And the second solution would be making AT teams prioritise playing against other AT teams. Because right now, MM just throwing AT teams against randoms simply because it allows to find game faster.

This system probably won't work at all, because the only way for randoms would be up. What could happen though is to weight wins and losses accordingly. However, if you already have discovered the needed weight to make it fair, you can just set up a proper match up in the first place (i.e. lower skill arranged team vs higher skill randoms). They should have tons of data of CoH2 to make a decent guess for CoH3, how much stronger an arranged team is, just because they are "arranged" and not random.

There is no way to achieve "fairness" in randoms vs arranged. It is inherently massively unfair no matter the player skill involved. It should not effect a competitive ladder whatsoever. I honestly don't care if this leads to massive drops at the start. Random teams should not have to fight arranged (if they don't want to).

Also, metas come and go, at times you can have severely cancerous synergizing metas dominating that will skew things even farther in the direction of arranged vs random, IE the current state of 4v4 with pathfinder shit.

Ive had some massive fun games in 2v2 random vs AT. just match the randoms with a bit higher elo

The calls to have separate arranged and random ladders just aren't viable. Unless CoH3 is some kind of golden goose egg that attracts insanely high active player counts, we're going to have to pool more people together.

There are other factors or tools that can be made to make random teams fight more effectively. From things like map design, UI popups (coh2 notifies you when an ally is calling in a barrage or air strike, for example), and voice chat. It's possible that the matchmaker could work differently in coh3, too, so everyone has a kind of average score. I know Steel Division has this (because there are so many different "factions") so you just get a single rating.

There is no way to achieve "fairness" in randoms vs arranged. It is inherently massively unfair no matter the player skill involved. It should not effect a competitive ladder whatsoever. I honestly don't care if this leads to massive drops at the start. Random teams should not have to fight arranged (if they don't want to).

Also, metas come and go, at times you can have severely cancerous synergizing metas dominating that will skew things even farther in the direction of arranged vs random, IE the current state of 4v4 with pathfinder shit.

Purely logically speaking, there is definitely a way to do adjust the picked ELO for arranged teams and randoms. The question is just, if the data Relic has is enough to adjust for the tons of variables that come with a normal CoH match.

CoH is not big enough to split the community any further, we cannot separate randoms from arranged teams and let them play on different ladders. Match maker fuck ups aside, there is currently just enough players to get a decent match up during prime time. And my experience mostly comes from 2v2 and 3v3 with 2 similarly skilled friends, which makes it way easier for the match maker to find opponents. Most matches here are fine, but some games are really unfair in skill in one or the other way, even despite this already being an "easy" mode for the matchmaker to find suitable opponents. Other modes and randoms have it harder, and then try playing outside of prime time...

There is no feasible way for CoH to create even more separately handled ladders without killing the game outright. The only option is to somehow get 5x or so the player base on a constant basis, and that's not going to happen.

Problem is not the AT themselfs, even randoms are capable of winning vs AT teams, when the match is fair skill vise. AT team surely will have an advantage, but its not the over the top one.

Particularly in CoH2 problem with AT teams is AT rank and the way its made is complete and utter BS. Game simply doesn't take into a consideration individual AT players ranks, which leads to MM being garbage.

There is no easy way to even fix this problem. You cant take individual ranks, because there are people who exclusively play AT and dont have solo rank, but you also cant have this "artificial" AT rank because for the game rank 14 AT consisting of top 10 players is equal to legit AT of rank 14 players for instance.

There is also no reason why the game should take your "random" rank as a basis for your AT skill. The most obvious one is that performance will heavily differ, but also just a practical one that you already mentioned: Not everyone has a solo rank, or at least a recent solo rank. CoH2 matches last between 20-60 minutes regularly, if I can only play a couple of matches per week, I want to play them with friends if possible, and I assume there are many more cases like mine. And many more issues: What do you do if your ranks/ELO ratings differ a lot? Which one is being prioritized or overweighted to estimate your skill for the match up?

The only solution would probably be, instead of changing how AT works, change how randoms vs AT treated. Randoms should be rewarded more or pushed less when playing against AT teams for sure, at least it this would soften the unfairness of the MM.

And the second solution would be making AT teams prioritise playing against other AT teams. Because right now, MM just throwing AT teams against randoms simply because it allows to find game faster.

But how would you calculate that factor for reward and punishment when winning or losing to an arranged team? You need to analyze some data on that to make an educated guess. And if you already have this analysis, why would you not try to fix the problem at the root? You can estimate how much of a benefit it is to be an arranged team, e.g. an AT has a 60% win chance over randoms in an equally skilled game. If you already have those data points, you can just start to upmatch the AT until they have roughly 50% win rate again.

Other games have it definitely easier to get this data, but I am fairly certain that e.g. Rocket League does exactly that on ranked ladders. They have an easier way to generate data. On the other hand, CoH2 now also has a couple of years of data available, even if you delete the shoddy first couple of years.

Another problem is, that it will be difficult to e.g. properly rank 3v3 and 4v4 ATs. The majority of players there are randoms. If, as an AT, you don't gain much from winning against randoms, how will the game be able to ever properly match you, unless it completely detaches you internal ELO rating from your actual rank, at which point the rank will be pointless.

Which one is being prioritized or overweighted to estimate your skill for the match up?

Other games have it definitely easier to get this data, but I am fairly certain that e.g. Rocket League does exactly that on ranked ladders.

Other games in a first place, try to match equal amount of AT players, or they dont even have AT rank. And I personally would say that the whole idea behind AT\Random wont simply work, unless AT teams are prioritise against other AT teams in most of the situations.

The logical solution would be to just combine both of them and just have shared faction rank. This might bring its own problems, like having ranks boosted by playing in AT teams, but over-all at very least it will allow strate forward MM, where each player could get equally rank opponent. Pretty much competitive games like CSGO, R6 and others use this method. It has its own flaws and drawbacks, but its definitely much better then what we have in CoH2.

But how would you calculate that factor for reward and punishment when winning or losing to an arranged team?

It we imagine that the shared rank system is implemented, CoH2 like AT data could also be kept. And losing\gaining amount of ELO for randoms could be calculated based on the W\L of the AT team. But even this wont be really needed, if MM will get opponents more or less with-in your skill level, since, as I was saying, if match is fair skill-vise in a first place its hardly matters if your are AT or not.

+1

Randoms should get severely rewarded if they win against arranged teams, but nothing should happen to their playercard if they lose normally (only if they abandon their team early)

Exactly. That's the way statistical weighing works.

If you play against arranged team AND they are both your level or higher you get next to no penalty on rank if you lose but if you win you get up big time.

This system probably won't work at all, because the only way for randoms would be up. What could happen though is to weight wins and losses accordingly. However, if you already have discovered the needed weight to make it fair, you can just set up a proper match up in the first place (i.e. lower skill arranged team vs higher skill randoms). They should have tons of data of CoH2 to make a decent guess for CoH3, how much stronger an arranged team is, just because they are "arranged" and not random.

There exists no universe where playing with a rando against arranged team is fair. EVERY modern gaming algorithm takes that into account.

See for example CSGO and LOL where even though there are arranged teams aplenty the games are still fair and balanced. Why? Because the system knows to weigh each instance accordingly.

Problem is not the AT themselfs, even randoms are capable of winning vs AT teams, when the match is fair skill vise. AT team surely will have an advantage, but its not the over the top one.

Particularly in CoH2 problem with AT teams is AT rank and the way its made is complete and utter BS. Game simply doesn't take into a consideration individual AT players ranks, which leads to MM being garbage.

There is no easy way to even fix this problem. You cant take individual ranks, because there are people who exclusively play AT and dont have solo rank, but you also cant have this "artificial" AT rank because for the game rank 14 AT consisting of top 10 players is equal to legit AT of rank 14 players for instance.

The only solution would probably be, instead of changing how AT works, change how randoms vs AT treated. Randoms should be rewarded more or pushed less when playing against AT teams for sure, at least it this would soften the unfairness of the MM.

And the second solution would be making AT teams prioritise playing against other AT teams. Because right now, MM just throwing AT teams against randoms simply because it allows to find game faster.

lmao of course there is a solution my man.

Put COH2 arrangeds and randos in completely different queues so randos only play with randos and at only play against at.

"A lot of people are going to wait before finding a match" -- yeah remind me to give half a shit how the game experience will be for a 2v1 coordinated blobber against poor kids who barely know how to position mg.

THEN make COH3 algo better. Hell, take GlickoII and copy paste it the source code is free ffs and Valve and Riot use it.

Ive had some massive fun games in 2v2 random vs AT. just match the randoms with a bit higher elo

"I give my completely personal and biased view that neuters a real problem, ergo the real problem does not exist".

CoH is not big enough to split the community any further, we cannot separate randoms from arranged teams and let them play on different ladders.

Yes we can and nothing serious is going to happen. The people that love COH2 will keep playing with AT against other AT. The only people that will "suffer" from it are the idiotic noob stompers that only expect to win on good coordination and massive blobbing. The thing is that's viable in COH2 to this day, that's why people do it. Put em separately, nobody will give half a shit I promise.

And my experience mostly comes from 2v2 and 3v3 with 2 similarly skilled friends, which makes it way easier for the match maker to find opponents [...]

So you talk about a problem in which you actively take part or at the very least take advantage of.

There is no feasible way for CoH to create even more separately handled ladders without killing the game outright. The only option is to somehow get 5x or so the player base on a constant basis, and that's not going to happen.

That's fear mongering. Of course some people are goin to be unhappy, but the overall majority will be happy. You cannot just dismiss all the criticism with a simple "but the game will be worse".

...

You're claiming a lot of stuff without providing data or at least some reasoning behind it. I can make a lot of counter claims without any back up as well. Doesn't make for a discussion, let alone for a counter argument.

You're claiming a lot of stuff without providing data or at least some reasoning behind it. I can make a lot of counter claims without any back up as well. Doesn't make for a discussion, let alone for a counter argument.

Here's your data. Less than 10% of the players of the game are arranged teams.

Hence, putting them in different queue will make life harder ONLY for them. Do I care that I will make 10% life harder if that means 90% will have better quality games?

Nope.

There's your reasoning.

The calls to have separate arranged and random ladders just aren't viable. Unless CoH3 is some kind of golden goose egg that attracts insanely high active player counts, we're going to have to pool more people together.

There are other factors or tools that can be made to make random teams fight more effectively. From things like map design, UI popups (coh2 notifies you when an ally is calling in a barrage or air strike, for example), and voice chat. It's possible that the matchmaker could work differently in coh3, too, so everyone has a kind of average score. I know Steel Division has this (because there are so many different "factions") so you just get a single rating.

This is a bad argument.

Most RT vs AT wind up in the match being done and dusted within 5-20 minutes and are not enjoyable to anyone, except those worms that like playing unfair seal clubbing BS.
So add that to 5 minute queue time and you have far, far more time wasted waiting for a 'good match' than if you would just split the player pool into a RT and AT sections, give people that play randoms the choice to opt in to matching against arranged teams if they want.