Does Ostheer Puma really req 5 cp?

Does Ostheer Puma really req 5 cp?

Does Ostheer Puma really req 5 cp?

Yes, do you feel that 5 cp is too much?

Just like it always did.

Does Ostheer Puma really req 5 cp?

Panic Puma was apparently a bit of a scourge at one point, though the commander doesn't really have much going for it over other doctrines with Panzer Tactician and the Command Tank ( Blitzkrieg, Fortified Armour, Festung Armour, all of which offer more, though that's arguable in the case of Festung).

I think the Puma would be better off being 0 (Or 2/3, depends on the timing) CP and buildable from tier 2, rather than the current model (I might be concerned that this would be a little too cheap, and possibly even too fast though, relative to the OKW Puma, so it would need tweaking.) CP5 + build time means it misses its window (Or it feels as though this is the case, at least), but it being buildable from HQ means you can't really reduce the CP requirement too much, as you don't even need to tech to BP1. I doubt anyone wants to return to the Panic Puma meta, but when was the last time you saw an Ostheer Puma in a serious game?

The fact the commander itself is fairly "eh" doesn't really help, either. Panzer Tactician is the best all-rounder ability in there. If it had regular Osttruppen rather than Reserves, and/or an offmap, then maybe the Puma timing wouldn't even matter so much.

Should be cp4 ish, with a 8-9 timing, so whatever fits that, limited to 1 until you get bp1. Would be the good compromise.

Should be cp4 ish, with a 8-9 timing, so whatever fits that, limited to 1 until you get bp1. Would be the good compromise.

Would buying more than a single Puma even be all that relevant? I suppose the argument is that it would let you delay t2/avoid getting a PAK... but you're paying 70 fuel for the "privilege".

Perhaps there's some gimmick i'm missing though.

Puma should be buildable from T2 with 3 CPs. There is absolutely no reason, why Ost Puma should arrive later than OKW one. No call-in and with buildtime, it would be perfectly balanced.

Puma should be buildable from T2 with 3 CPs. There is absolutely no reason, why Ost Puma should arrive later than OKW one. No call-in and with buildtime, it would be perfectly balanced.

They're a different faction, it's not quite as easy as just letting them have X unit at Y time, because another faction gets it at Y time. I'd like if they got it at something like 3CP and through tier 2... but I don't know if there are any issues that would arise from that. Further discussion might be warranted, but my initial thought would be to agree with you.

Puma should be buildable from T2 with 3 CPs. There is absolutely no reason, why Ost Puma should arrive later than OKW one

It's not about arriving later, it's about not arriving earlier. Because Ostheer can put way more pressure on the early game with its cheap and effective light vehicles. If the Puma comes too early, then it will shut down an Allied response (an LV of their own) too effectively.

The problem with MobiDef was never that any of its abilities were too strong individually, but that it as a whole could easily snowball with a rush of survivable light vehicles (PT), a fast and direct counter to the Allied response (Puma) and following it up with a fast medium tank (CP4) to finish it off.

It's not about arriving later, it's about not arriving earlier. Because Ostheer can put way more pressure on the early game with its cheap and effective light vehicles. If the Puma comes too early, then it will shut down an Allied response (an LV of their own) too effectively.

The problem with MobiDef was never that any of its abilities were too strong individually, but that it as a whole could easily snowball with a rush of survivable light vehicles (PT), a fast and direct counter to the Allied response (Puma) and following it up with a fast medium tank (CP4) to finish it off.

Sounds like Mobile Defence needs rather a lot of fiddling with, eh? It'd be nice to keep the Puma as part of the doc, as it's unique (for OST), but as you're saying; the doctrine's design unfortunately has major flaws. It went from being pretty oppressive to being arguably pretty garbage, and it's difficult to find a middle ground, especially without swapping out some abilities.

It's not about arriving later, it's about not arriving earlier. Because Ostheer can put way more pressure on the early game with its cheap and effective light vehicles. If the Puma comes too early, then it will shut down an Allied response (an LV of their own) too effectively.

The problem with MobiDef was never that any of its abilities were too strong individually, but that it as a whole could easily snowball with a rush of survivable light vehicles (PT), a fast and direct counter to the Allied response (Puma) and following it up with a fast medium tank (CP4) to finish it off.

And that is why instead of nerfing the C Panzer and Puma to oblivion the C panzer should had been removed from the commander.

Should be cp4 ish, with a 8-9 timing, so whatever fits that, limited to 1 until you get bp1. Would be the good compromise.

I can't see a scenario where it would be a good idea to allow puma to arrive before greyhound.

I can't see a scenario where it would be a good idea to allow puma to arrive before greyhound.

Well if somehow rush puma, most of the time its better to skip lv and go straight for med tank

Puma should be buildable from T2 with 3 CPs. There is absolutely no reason, why Ost Puma should arrive later than OKW one. No call-in and with buildtime, it would be perfectly balanced.

Actually there is a reason and its history. We already had several patch cycles where ost was completely dominant because they could get their AT light vehicle so early, causing them to have no weakness mid game essentially.

Puma is too good for OST to have that early, its why its 5cp in the first place.

Why is nobody reading carefully in this forum...

I proposed:

- tech Battlephase 1
- build Leichte Mechanized
- build Puma (remember: 320 mp + 70 fuel; maybe same buildtime like AEC or Luchs?)

And all this with 3 CPs in hand. Tell me to get that done before 6-7 minutes. I wouldn't call that "early".

Every AEC is earlier on field and denies all Ost vehicles. Nobody cares.

Have I already mentioned Puma's sight range was nerfed in last patch?

And has anybody noticed, that Puma is crap vs. infantry since a few patches ago? It's only a hardcounter to vehicles. So maybe build infantry? Maybe some of the new improved Penals with PTRS?

AEC does not only shut down Ostheer´s light vehicles, but can also kill a medium vehicle like a P4 or Ostwind with a little bit of support.

I am not proposing a nerf or something like that,

but an upgradeable scout car for ostheer might be an alternative idea, if that´s possible somehow.

That could add some tactical variety for a player to either rush for medium vehicles or continue with stronger versions of light vehicles.

(I refer to 3v3 gameplay)

Why is nobody reading carefully in this forum...

I proposed:

- tech Battlephase 2
- build Leichte Mechanized
- build Puma (remember: 320 mp + 70 fuel; maybe same buildtime like AEC or Luchs?)

And all this with 3 CPs in hand. Tell me to get that done before 6-7 minutes. I wouldn't call that "early".

Every AEC is earlier on field and denies all Ost vehicles. Nobody cares.

Have I already mentioned Puma's sight range was nerfed in last patch?

And has anybody noticed, that Puma is crap vs. infantry since a few patches ago? It's only a hardcounter to vehicles. So maybe build infantry? Maybe some of the new improved Penals with PTRS?

Do you mean BP1? If you tech BP2 then you might as well build T3 at that point. I do think you could make Puma more similar to OKw timing that way and just fiddle with buildtime or cost if needed.

AEC does not only shut down Ostheer´s light vehicles, but can also kill a medium vehicle like a P4 or Ostwind with a little bit of support.

I am not proposing a nerf or something like that,

but an upgradeable scout car for ostheer might be an alternative idea, if that´s possible somehow.

That could add some tactical variety for a player to either rush for medium vehicles or continue with stronger versions of light vehicles.

(I refer to 3v3 gameplay)

Well, Ostheer originally had that. They started with the 221, which could then upgrade to the 222. It apparently wasn't a workable bit of design, so now they just build the 222.

Well, Ostheer originally had that. They started with the 221, which could then upgrade to the 222. It apparently wasn't a workable bit of design, so now they just build the 222.

The actual problem was that the 221 to 222 upgrade cost munition in an already munition starved faction. If the upgrade was changed to MP/FU it would be fine.

Actually reintroducing the 221 (with some changes) for ostheer it would be great for the faction

The actual problem was that the 221 to 222 upgrade cost munition in an already munition starved faction. If the upgrade was changed to MP/FU it would be fine.

Actually reintroducing the 221 (with some changes) for ostheer it would be great for the faction

Would it? The 222 already comes quite early, what would the 221 add? Either it delays the 222 for some reason, or you can get it before the Leichte, in which case OST has an absurdly early light for...what reason?