Future Balance Items by Relic

Stephenn, you are talking about a Hold fire button on Pak, yes?

Imo the combined cost, positioning and micro required to pull of an ambush as you suggest is disproportional to the cost, positioning and micro of a single T70.

I still endorse a faster first fire salvo from Shreks, as offset by a longer reload time.
This rewards Shreks for managing to get into range/ambush of especially a T70, keeps the same net result in more protracted engagements vs later heavier Sov tanks, and doesnt affect infantry combat.

With a shorter aim time, Shreks can play the same cat and mouse, hide and seek as the T70 can, by moving in and out of LoS while firing shots in return to the T70s potshots.

With a longer reload time they become increasingly vulnerable after the first salvo.
TLDR:It makes Shreks, at cost, able to respond to T70s, but doesnt skew the subsequent engagements vs more expensive armor.

Ive used your Pak+Shrek suggestion, but it relies very heavily on a 2 unit combo, positioning and exorbitant cost compared to what you are countering.

Reducing Shrek aim time and increasing reload makes sense not only for the T70 engagements, but overall. Faster initial salvo, slower followup. Meaning Sov has time to get out before the second one, but is more vulnerable to ambushes as everyone has stated and agreed is the sort of placement a Shrek design should support.

It's unfair to comapare the pak + shreks to a single t70 costwise. The goal for the ostheer player is to not lose them and keep them prevailing against more than a single t70. This is because a single t70 will not be able to do anthing vs this combo other than pick off unsupported units. As the game progresses the lack of armor on the t70 makes its flimsyness a larger micro concern for the soviet player

Yes it's easier to micro a t70 vs a pak and shreks than to catch it for the ost player. But in the game there's so many small goals that you have to achieve to win the game.It doesn't help the t70 guy that he's causing 2-300 mp worth of damage with his t70 if you are holding fuel and a vp is able to stall for the tier where your map control units come out (T3)

the potshot situation is a classic coh situation. it's what you do with more maneuvrable or better range units

Imo the combined cost, positioning and micro required to pull of an ambush as you suggest is disproportional to the cost, positioning and micro of a single T70.

While this is a subjective discussion that I can appreciate I am sure we can digup tons of scenarios where the shoe is on the other foot. For example: microing a su 85 w support vs a blitzkrieg p4. On one hand you have a very clunky su85 vs super speed p4

SmokazCOH: What would be so terrible about a faster initial salvo on Shreks as offset by a longer reload?

you're going from the premise of the t70 being op to changing all matchups of shrek vs vehicles

watch out relic might hire you

Shrecks aren't supposed to counter the T-70.

Yes, yes, price differences and all that, but it's just not its role, and in fact it never was the shrecks's role in CoH's history to destroy light vehicles (unless you used cloaked Storms but those were doctrinal). It's designed to destroy medium tanks and cripple heavy ones, and it's pretty successfull in that regard so long as you support your PGrens. But your primary infantry AT is and always will be a PaK. Get it, support it, and it will deter the little guy until your Panzer 4s can flatten his T3.

I mean, price isin't everything. A Zis-3 will (eventually) destroy an Elefant 1v1. Does that make the Zis crazy OP?

At worst, if you have difficulty with T-70s in particular, you can grab the free doc that gives you the open-topped halftrack, and go all Panzer Elite on the Soviets by putting shrecks in them. I loved doing that back in the days. In some maps, shrecks in buildings are also a great deterrent until you can field a Panzer, as T-70 barely damage structures. The T-70 may be slightly OP, but it's not like it's unstopable bar the broken commander, and again shrecks aren't supposed to 1v1 it.

you're going from the premise of the t70 being op to changing all matchups of shrek vs vehicles

watch out relic might hire you

I can appreciate the trolliness.
But you didn't really answer my question...

The_Courier: None of that really invalidates my proposal of reducing aim time, at the expense of a longer reload time though. Its basic effect would be for a faster initial hit, specifically from ambush position, to help deal with a simple reverse, whereas it evens out in longer open field engagements as there is the second salvo comes out later.

Basically re-adjusts current status quo to where it helps Shreks perform their ambush function but doesnt really change their overall effectiveness.

I can appreciate the trolliness.
But you didn't really answer my question...

The_Courier: None of that really invalidates my proposal of reducing aim time, at the expense of a longer reload time though. Its basic effect would be for a faster initial hit, specifically from ambush position, to help deal with a simple reverse, whereas it evens out in longer open field engagements as there is the second salvo comes out later.

Basically re-adjusts current status quo to where it helps Shreks perform their ambush function but doesnt really change their overall effectiveness.

If it makes you feel better, sure, propose Relic make that change. It still won't make the unit perform much better against a decently microed T-70, since it's not supposed to anyhow. The team has much bigger balance concerns at the moment.

It still won't make the unit perform much better against a decently microed T-70, since it's not supposed to anyhow.

Then there is no harm in doing so, is there. Just improves Shrek upfront function by evening it out in the long run.

The team has much bigger balance concerns at the moment.

I agree. But just cos you have cancer of the colon, doesn't mean the infected wound on your ankle doesn't need treating too. All this needs is two values changed. Reduce aim time, increase reload.

You are a bit dense really. Are you hungover?

Shreks don't need faster aimtime vs sus and t34s even if it was balanced out with logner reload.

This cryfest is centered around the t70, nobody has mentioned shreks needing a buff vs su and t34. It would change the matchup vs other tanks even if you found some perfect conversion in epic balance land between aim time and reload..

That aim time change would make it more likely to get off max range shots vs reversing su85s, if you need a example.

You are a bit dense really. Are you hungover?

Seriously, I stopped reading right there.

If that is the tone you are going to take, I dont give a shit what else you have to say.

Especially from a guy who has only 6 1v1 as 1 faction.

Go insult someone who cares, when they ask you a reasonable direct question.

Except.. vast majority ends up taking that tone with you. Fix world not me

its reasonable to ask if someone is dense if they keep asking a question that was answered in 2-3 posts

as for my playercard.. hue hue hue hue. I am old my friend. I was hitting rushing marders to brit HQ on wolfheze before you even crawled out of kindergarten

People seems to forget that, without Soviet Industry, losing your first T70 is VERY painful for the soviet player as the german player will have a PzIV even before he can make a single T34.


Until new commanders were released, T70 was pretty balanced.
It could be overperforming in big and open maps, but clearly not OP. Incoming scatter nerf will make infantry surprised for a T70 more survivable so let's wait what happens then.

People seems to forget that, without Soviet Industry, losing your first T70 is VERY painful for the soviet player as the german player will have a PzIV even before he can make a single T34.


Until new commanders were released, T70 was pretty balanced.
It could be overperforming in big and open maps, but clearly not OP. Incoming scatter nerf will make infantry surprised for a T70 more survivable so let's wait what happens then.

+1

Except.. vast majority ends up taking that tone with you. Fix world not me

its reasonable to ask if someone is dense if they keep asking a question that was answered in 2-3 posts

as for my playercard.. hue hue hue hue. I am old my friend. I was hitting rushing marders to brit HQ on wolfheze before you even crawled out of kindergarten

It is decided then - this post is thread winner; Nully fanclub disbanded 4vah.

It is decided then - this post is thread winner; Nully fanclub disbanded 4vah.

HUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUHE

From my recent experience with Germans manpower increase is a bit unfair for them as Soviets can produce valuable combat units from both buildings which means there will be basically 2 Sov units when German will only be able to produce one.
That's not right in my opinion. Something that should be looked at. I would even go as far as reverting the changes since we got build time of T1 and T2 increased.

Industry commander and 5 minutes T-70 is a joke. It really is. Why this hasn't been hot fixed till now I have no idea but common it's about time. I'd recommend for German players just to stop to play as I can't see how anyone can win against this broken commander when equally skilled players meet.
I don't use it till it's fixed myself and I think every Soviet player that doesn't want use exploits or cheats should't be using this commander as it feels like cheating.

I'd recommend for German players just to stop to play as I can't see how anyone can win against this broken commander when equally skilled players meet.
I don't use it till it's fixed myself and I think every Soviet player that doesn't want use exploits or cheats should't as using this commander feels like cheating.

Currently there are more soviet players than german ones. First time I see that.

Even more, most of the people playing right now have one of the two new commanders. I think I will stay away from the game till the thing gets fixed.

Currently there are more soviet players than german ones. First time I see that.

The matchmaker really, super-seriously, is no indicator of overall faction populations, and EVEN LESS of balance.

I can post screenshots from different times of day or even from within the same hour where there is sov or ost majority or 50/50.

Its flat out retarded trying to claim that as a proof of balance. Its completely arbitrary.
I cant overstate that enough.

Last nights SNF with 5-0 Sov, however, is strong evidence.
Especially when OMGPop is nr:3/5 and Ivan is nr:9/2 as Ost/Sov in 1v1 ranking.
Both are excellent Ost players, and OMPops Ost is equal to Ivans Sov ranking.

I look forward to seeing the overall faction ratio from SNF, especially because there is no Commander silliness there.

The matchmaker really, super-seriously, is no indicator of overall faction populations, and EVEN LESS of balance.

I can post screenshots from different times of day or even from within the same hour where there is sov or ost majority or 50/50.

Its flat out retarded trying to claim that as a proof of balance. Its completely arbitrary.
I cant overstate that enough.

Last nights SNF with 5-0 Sov, however, is strong evidence.
Especially when OMGPop is nr:3/5 and Ivan is nr:9/2 as Ost/Sov in 1v1 ranking.
Both are excellent Ost players, and OMPops Ost is equal to Ivans Sov ranking.

I look forward to seeing the overall faction ratio from SNF, especially because there is no Commander silliness there.

Hi

what makes these 5 fights "strong evidence"?

I believe you need a larger pool to work with than just 5 games to be able to claim that

One could also argue the ostheer play in those games was somewhat underwhelming

Please note I am not making any balance related claims in any direction

I didnt say it was conclusive evidence.
I said it was strong evidence.
Why? Because of these players respective skill levels and objective ranking in these factions.
One could argue that Ost play was underwhelming, but since there was 5 matches which yielded Sov win everytime, it would be more accurate to argue Sov play was overwhelming.

As to a larger pool, if you actually read my post, youd see I eagerly await the overall win ratio of factions from the entire tournament. Would that not be a large enough pool for you or something?

as good as they were, both players were clearly a lot more comfortable doing soviet. I fell asleep because of a exam in market law after the 3rd game, but i remember the chat speculating if Ivan was just trying to get vp lead enough to pick soviets

none of them seemed to have much prepared for their ostheer game, the m3 play was shown from OMGPOP last weekend and t-70s from ivan was as expected and neither of them seemed very prepared to counter the respective builds

but this really warrants it's own thread