Ram + Offmap combo needs to be nerfed

Jump back to quoted post5 Apr 2020, 23:45 PMDoomlord52

Sorry, but this is a false equivalency, at best. You're comparing the use of an ability (ram) to a static unit (mine). Let's look at the 'counter-play' order.

Mine:
#1. Place mine
#2. Opponent could detect/destroy mine
#3. Mine detonates or is disabled

Ram:
#1. Click Ram
#2. Ram can't be stopped once clicked
#3. Ram hits


Again, every single (balanced) unit and ability in the game follows this pattern, because it's good game design.

Jump back to quoted post5 Apr 2020, 23:52 PMMazianni

Assuming that the T-34 is always in range is exactly the same as assuming the mine is already in place, and both require counterplay (screening).

Both are also vulnerable to zoning out the necessary support units.

Mine:
1. Mine is laid down in position.
2. Mine can be either spotted in being laid, or detected by likely singular sweeper-equipped engineer squad on the enemy team.
3. If enemy player fails to detect mine, enemy player suffers. Otherwise, Ostheer player loses munitions for nothing.

Ram:
1. Produce and position T-34/76
2. T-34/76 can be zoned out or destroyed by screening units (and not singular upgraded engineer squads)
3. If enemy player has failed to do this, enemy player suffers. Otherwise, Soviet player loses T-34 for nothing.

I'm really not quite sure how one can say one thing is balanced and not the other, particularly if, as I have suggested, the ram ability is moved to vet 1.

Jump back to quoted post5 Apr 2020, 23:45 PMDoomlord52

Ram:
#1. Click Ram
#2. Ram can't be stopped once clicked
#3. Ram hits

Jump back to quoted post5 Apr 2020, 23:55 PMDoomlord52

We're discussing the ram ability, not the T34 itself; that's the important distinction.

Using your own list, it's
#1 Produce T34
#2 Attempt to counter T34
#3 Click ram
#4 Ram can't be countered
#5 Ram hits

You've added an extra step to the begging, but haven't addressed the counter-play of the ability. It needs to be Ability -> Counter-Play -> Effect. Adding more steps doesn't change that.

Jump back to quoted post5 Apr 2020, 23:56 PMelchino7

While hard, you can block or out run the ram.

Jump back to quoted post5 Apr 2020, 23:57 PMMazianni

The ram ability is no less bound by effective range than the Teller mine is. It simply isn't correct to start your argument at the point of clicking "Ram" because the T-34 has to get there in the first place. Ignoring those steps does not make them go away - if the counterplay is lost on you it is because you have ignored the steps that are necessarily part of the play itself.

Jump back to quoted post5 Apr 2020, 22:09 PMVipper

A T-34 will ram even with engine damage.

It can not start ram "run" with engine damage but it will ram if the engine damage happens during the run.

Jump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 00:07 AMDoomlord52

Unfortunately, it's not consistent. It's also extremely unlikely with very slow 'ultra-heavy' vehicles, such as the JT.

Jump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 01:16 AMthedarkarmadillo

I guess that's technically true, but again, if the t34 gets into ramming range uncontested and unmolested someone fucked up. If your super heavy tank had nothing between it and the enemy, yes you deserve to hurt. I like the ram combo because it means having a super heavy unsupported will cost you. People need to support their investments and not expect them to win the game by themselves. The tiger ace of old isn't coming back

It's a high risk, higher reward maneuver and I have seen it fail (by encountering a good army composition) more than I have seen it succeed. And yes, even pros can fuck up and get caught out. That's part of the game.

Jump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 01:16 AMthedarkarmadillo

I guess that's technically true, but again, if the t34 gets into ramming range uncontested and unmolested someone fucked up. If your super heavy tank had nothing between it and the enemy, yes you deserve to hurt. I like the ram combo because it means having a super heavy unsupported will cost you.

Jump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 03:58 AMFarlion

A while ago there was a similar thread, where, I forgot who, pointed out that somehow all the high level players are unable to avoid ram, but somehow the players outside of that level claim it's easy to avoid.

I think Stormjäger's option is probably the best one. It preserves the ability, but actually adds some layer of strategy to it.



Complete nonsense. In 1v1/2v2 you can manage, with difficulty to screen your heavy against a single T34. But as game design has it, the unit isn't terrible expensive. And stopping two T34s from ramming is nigh high impossible, especially with the way most of the maps in 2v2 are.

Jump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 03:58 AMFarlion

Complete nonsense. In 1v1/2v2 you can manage, with difficulty to screen your heavy against a single T34. But as game design has it, the unit isn't terrible expensive. And stopping two T34s from ramming is nigh high impossible, especially with the way most of the maps in 2v2 are.

Jump back to quoted post5 Apr 2020, 19:23 PMikab

The T34 + Ram combo is far too effective against heavy tanks in 2v2, in particular the OKW heavy tanks like the King Tiger and the Jagdtiger that, once rammed, can't escape the subsequent indirect (either IL20 or rocket strafe) because of their lack of speed.

It is ridiculous that ~3 minutes worth of fuel income and munitions income can take out 9 minutes worth of opportunity cost and fuel income. It is also especially egregious because it has effectively no counter; once the ram begins, every heavy tank the axis get other than the Tiger will die to the combo; this is partly why the Tiger is essentially the only heavy Axis tank built in high level 2v2s.

Possible ways to balance the combo:

- Remove Ram. I would recommend this the most: The T34 is an excellent unit that is about as effective as all the other mediums in the game, and soviets have excellent late game besides the T34. The T34 does not need ram. Ram is an artifact of the era in balance when T34s were half the effectiveness of the Panzer 4 and most of the soviet late game AT would be dealt with AT guns, heavy tanks or the SU85/76.
- Remove the stun from Ram; it now only slows for a set amount of time, enough so that a heavy tank can escape on a standard 2v2 map before the indirect hits.
- Reduce the amount of damage the rocket strafe/IL-20 does to heavy tanks. I don't like this option beacause I think these abilities should do lots of damage heavy tanks, it just becomes unbalanced when paired with an ability that makes these indirect options unavoidable.

Jump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 04:01 AMDomine

Support or not doesn't make difference in the case of ram, as it ignores engine damage and also gives out engine damage once the ram actually runs out. I also like how the only heavy tanks able to go in unsupported have to be the allied ones. Very convenient

Jump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 10:39 AMPrinceps

T34 should be a cheap/weak spammable Tank(Thats what is was) And not a 1 click Heavy counter.

And one word to mine laying... The commander with the ISU has also the IL2 strike....

Tell me pls how u want to mine ur frontline against the much better soviet recons and the ISU ?

Jump back to quoted post6 Apr 2020, 11:57 AMSweetrollNearTheDoor

Ram also has a lot of "legacy RNG" tied to it that can be a source of extreme frustration.

Assuming the coh2 ability guide is up-to-date (should be since ram has been untouched forever) ram still has a 5% chance of heavy engine damage and 3% chance of immobilization. Those 2 crits are a certain death to any tank and the small chance to dodge an IL2 / rocket strafe combo is reduced to zero.

If nothing more those retarded crits need to go - there isn't any justification for them and they just cause unnecessary bg /leave moments. (unless one wants pure RNG to win fights)