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russian armor

Shock Crew on IS2?

15 Oct 2013, 19:13 PM
#1
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896

I noticed the IS2 receives allot of shock crew when going against the Tiger, but does not cause as much shock crew on Tiger. Given the IS2 has the higher damage per shot shouldn't the IS2 bounced shots be giving more shock crew to the Tiger?
15 Oct 2013, 20:03 PM
#2
avatar of rofltehcat

Posts: 604

The IS2 has a 1/6 chance to stun on deflection and the Tiger has a 1/5 chance to stun on deflection. Both have roughly 50% chance to penetrate each other but the Tiger fires nearly twice as fast.
Note that those are several chances working together so randomness can play a huge role here. The faster firing speed can also make a huge difference.

Overall, the Tiger is designed to be better at anti tank and the IS-2 to be better at anti infantry combat. This doesn't mean that it needs to stun more often or anything, I think they could even remove the stun mechanic altogether because I dislike the randomness created by those big "binary" effects (stun, AT grenade, ram) based on a random chance rather than player skill.
Those effects should be noticeable but their intensity should decrease rather than their success chance.
15 Oct 2013, 20:48 PM
#3
avatar of link0

Posts: 337

The IS2 has a 1/6 chance to stun on deflection and the Tiger has a 1/5 chance to stun on deflection. Both have roughly 50% chance to penetrate each other but the Tiger fires nearly twice as fast.
Note that those are several chances working together so randomness can play a huge role here. The faster firing speed can also make a huge difference.

Overall, the Tiger is designed to be better at anti tank and the IS-2 to be better at anti infantry combat. This doesn't mean that it needs to stun more often or anything, I think they could even remove the stun mechanic altogether because I dislike the randomness created by those big "binary" effects (stun, AT grenade, ram) based on a random chance rather than player skill.
Those effects should be noticeable but their intensity should decrease rather than their success chance.


Is it both 50% chance to pen? I thought the IS2's penetration was buffed to 170? Tiger has 140.
15 Oct 2013, 20:52 PM
#4
avatar of rofltehcat

Posts: 604

It is 47% for the Tiger to penetrate and 52% for the IS2 to penetrate. I just summed it up as "about 50%" to simplify it.
15 Oct 2013, 23:27 PM
#5
avatar of wooof

Posts: 950 | Subs: 1

is2 actually has a 56.67% chance to pen a tiger. (170/300)
16 Oct 2013, 00:26 AM
#6
avatar of rofltehcat

Posts: 604

woops, yeah. Looked the wrong place (IS2 has a 52% chance to penetrate an IS2, not a Tiger).

So yeah, this difference is a lot bigger. More penetrated hits mean less chances for crew stun of course.
16 Oct 2013, 03:46 AM
#7
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896

Ok, that makes sense now.

The Tiger gets a bit too much shock crew on the IS2. I really think it needs to be toned down a bit.
16 Oct 2013, 04:07 AM
#8
avatar of Turtle

Posts: 401

I think it may be that the IS-2 is the only tank that can survive enough hits from a tiger that it makes this low chance of crew shock into a common occurrence in games.

Most of anything in the Soviet army cannot withstand a direct front to front fight with a Tiger for more than a few hits. Most of the time they escape out of sight or blow up.

That said, it couldn't hurt to check and see if there's a bug somewhere in there, either in some numerical value, or the shock chance code itself.
16 Oct 2013, 04:42 AM
#9
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2013, 04:07 AMTurtle
I think it may be that the IS-2 is the only tank that can survive enough hits from a tiger that it makes this low chance of crew shock into a common occurrence in games.

Most of anything in the Soviet army cannot withstand a direct front to front fight with a Tiger for more than a few hits. Most of the time they escape out of sight or blow up.

That said, it couldn't hurt to check and see if there's a bug somewhere in there, either in some numerical value, or the shock chance code itself.


yes makes perfect sense and I hope we can have some help on this.
16 Oct 2013, 07:22 AM
#10
avatar of rofltehcat

Posts: 604

I don't think there is a bug. It is simply a chance for the crew shock critical with a weight of 1 on deflection and a chance to do nothing a weight of 4.

Code
"on_deflected_actions": [
{
"$REF": "action\\random_action.lua",
"instant": false,
"random_actions": [
{
"actions": [
{
"$REF": "action\\trigger_critical_action.lua",
"critical": "vehicle_crew_shocked",
"remove_at_health": 1
}
],
"weight": 1
},
{
"actions": [
{
"$REF": "action\\no_action.lua"
}
],
"weight": 4
}
]
}

16 Oct 2013, 07:55 AM
#11
avatar of Abdul

Posts: 896

I don't think there is a bug. It is simply a chance for the crew shock critical with a weight of 1 on deflection and a chance to do nothing a weight of 4.

Code
"on_deflected_actions": [
{
"$REF": "action\\random_action.lua",
"instant": false,
"random_actions": [
{
"actions": [
{
"$REF": "action\\trigger_critical_action.lua",
"critical": "vehicle_crew_shocked",
"remove_at_health": 1
}
],
"weight": 1
},
{
"actions": [
{
"$REF": "action\\no_action.lua"
}
],
"weight": 4
}
]
}



so 20% chance? is it the same for the Tiger?
16 Oct 2013, 09:29 AM
#12
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
TLDR: Higher chance to shock, per shot, due to lower penetration. More chance to shock per second, due to faster RoF. So yes, shocks the IS2 more than vice versa. But the IS2 sinks more shots past armor.

Dunno, gets really complicated overall when you start considering how much the constant shock may be hindering IS2s already lower RoF.

Probably pretty strongly in Tigers favor, I would think.
16 Oct 2013, 15:08 PM
#13
avatar of rofltehcat

Posts: 604

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Oct 2013, 07:55 AMAbdul


so 20% chance? is it the same for the Tiger?

These are the ones for the Tiger. The IS-2 has a 1 in 6 chance, so ~16.7%
16 Oct 2013, 15:23 PM
#14
avatar of Strummingbird
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 952 | Subs: 1


These are the ones for the Tiger. The IS-2 has a 1 in 6 chance, so ~16.7%


I could have sworn that the shock chance for the IS2 was removed in the update that bumped up its penetration and damage. Can't find the patch notes though.

And the Tiger does seem to stun the IS2 quite a lot from my (anecdotal) experience. I had one stun my IS2 two or three times consecutively in one engagement.

Given that the IS2 is better all-round and still dominates nearly everything one-on-one, though, and hunting armor is the Tiger's niche, I don't think the Tiger needs an adjustment in that department. Maybe if the Tiger's penetration was upped from the rather strange 154 value to maybe 170 or so, just to solidify its role as a primarily anti-armor tank, then the whole 'crew-shock' thing could be dropped entirely - instead of an RNG factor that, as the user of the tank, you can't count on to work, and as the recipient of the stun, you get frustrated by for being screwed over by the (bad) luck of the draw.
16 Oct 2013, 15:29 PM
#15
avatar of Turtle

Posts: 401

What I remember being removed from the IS-2 was the damage on deflect ability that applied damage to a target even if its gun deflected. Or was that the ISU-152?

Hard to remember all the little changes.

Also, I have to agree, it really does seem like in the Tiger/IS2 matchup I see crew shocked results with surprising regularity against the IS2. You can go through most games without seeing a single shock result, but as soon as you get an IS2 and Tiger on the field, suddenly it happens every time the tanks meet. I've actually had an IS2 get shocked twice in the same engagement, and more later on.

But again, I'm really not sure if it's an actual problem, or just that the IS2 is survivable enough that it's getting hit with more shots, which is more chances to naturally come up with a crew shock.
16 Oct 2013, 15:31 PM
#16
avatar of rofltehcat

Posts: 604

I thought so too (the patch) but the 1 in 6 chance is in the IS2 weapon file:
Code
"on_deflected_actions": [
{
"$REF": "action\\random_action.lua",
"instant": false,
"random_actions": [
{
"actions": [
{
"$REF": "action\\trigger_critical_action.lua",
"critical": "vehicle_crew_shocked",
"remove_at_health": 1
}
],
"weight": 1
},
{
"actions": [
{
"$REF": "action\\no_action.lua"
}
],
"weight": 5
}
]
}
16 Oct 2013, 15:53 PM
#17
avatar of Paranoia

Posts: 93

Yup agree on the shock too much. Put a vetted stug close by and the IS2 doesnt even get a shot off. Happened to me last night and I did a shameful rage quit :( All those resources wasted

I want the possibility of stun crew turned way down
16 Oct 2013, 15:59 PM
#18
avatar of Strummingbird
Honorary Member Badge

Posts: 952 | Subs: 1

I thought so too (the patch) but the 1 in 6 chance is in the IS2 weapon file:

Right, it was the damage done on deflect that was removed, not stun chance. Strange, I've never actually seen (or can't remember ever seeing) an IS2 stun a tank on a bounce. Maybe because it fires so slowly and the shells, when they do hit, more often than not penetrate what they hit?

Yup agree on the shock too much. Put a vetted stug close by and the IS2 doesnt even get a shot off.


AFAIK only the Brumm, IS2, ISU, and Tiger have the chance to stun crew via deflects. Stugs, Paks, and other assault guns stun 100% of the time with the Vet 1 ability only- unless you're saying your opponent had a Tiger and a vetted Stug chain-stunning the IS2, in which case that's an unfortunate fact of life.

I want the possibility of stun crew turned way down


I'd be happy with the complete removal of the whole deflect-stun thing in favour of a proper stat buff or cost drop. At least that way you get what you pay for all the time.
16 Oct 2013, 16:49 PM
#19
avatar of Endeav

Posts: 170


Right, it was the damage done on deflect that was removed, not stun chance. Strange, I've never actually seen (or can't remember ever seeing) an IS2 stun a tank on a bounce. Maybe because it fires so slowly and the shells, when they do hit, more often than not penetrate what they hit?



AFAIK only the Brumm, IS2, ISU, and Tiger have the chance to stun crew via deflects. Stugs, Paks, and other assault guns stun 100% of the time with the Vet 1 ability only- unless you're saying your opponent had a Tiger and a vetted Stug chain-stunning the IS2, in which case that's an unfortunate fact of life.



I'd be happy with the complete removal of the whole deflect-stun thing in favour of a proper stat buff or cost drop. At least that way you get what you pay for all the time.
16 Oct 2013, 16:50 PM
#20
avatar of Endeav

Posts: 170


Right, it was the damage done on deflect that was removed, not stun chance. Strange, I've never actually seen (or can't remember ever seeing) an IS2 stun a tank on a bounce. Maybe because it fires so slowly and the shells, when they do hit, more often than not penetrate what they hit?



AFAIK only the Brumm, IS2, ISU, and Tiger have the chance to stun crew via deflects. Stugs, Paks, and other assault guns stun 100% of the time with the Vet 1 ability only- unless you're saying your opponent had a Tiger and a vetted Stug chain-stunning the IS2, in which case that's an unfortunate fact of life.



I'd be happy with the complete removal of the whole deflect-stun thing in favour of a proper stat buff or cost drop. At least that way you get what you pay for all the time.


He's talking about heat rounds.
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