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Ostwind's penetrations

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24 Jul 2019, 00:18 AM
#281
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

when it comes to nerf axis, always animedude stands straight. When it comes to arguments validity, they fall like flies.

Using teching as an excuse of performance is a bad start to begin with. Later using the timing only makes it worse. It seems that someone forgot to read the "ostwind needs a buff" thread before this one. There people civilly discussed that either ostw gets shock value or lategame AI potential. It happened to be a little of both with most of the AI potential. Since it cost got nerfed recently, to adjust its new performance, i would suggest that OP is also lagging behind the game changes.

Ostwind is neither a safe bet for axis as it is for allied and centaur nor an unpredictably strong shock unit since most basic AT oriented mediums can zone it out to say the least. It forces a t34 or a m4 sherman into game, therefore adding to game variety and that also gives the allied faction some reactive gameplay other that earlygame. Otherwise allied play proactively forcing pushes and draining resources and time from the standard axis build order.

Ostwind is nor overperforming in any sense, but some forum trolls rather prefer to keep playing like they used to instead of adapt to new game scenarios
24 Jul 2019, 00:25 AM
#282
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358



It did not change its role as a inf killing machine by just nerfing its range or dps outside AT infs or dps against multiple squads, The situation is somewhat similar to the pre patched Brummber. A inf killing machine is ok, but a inf killing machine that could easily dealing with AT staff for its timing is not ok.
And Ostwind now is also somehow overlapping brummber.
Centaur actually has more armour but shercks have more pen,

basically a more expensive, later to come, AI dedicated, ex-trash, reactive unit (picked because of massed infantry) unit has to surrender itself to the most common units in allied openings, widely massed and highly adaptable infantry to basically become trash again.

A tool designed to deterr blobs, its going to get nerfed to not be able to do it anymore.
Do you want to promote blobbing?

The only infantry ostwind will be a killing machine for will be combat engineers and afk snipers.
24 Jul 2019, 00:31 AM
#283
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358


Even the 2 second longer reload is mostly meaningless. A panzershreck, assuming it hits every time, will do more damage in a minute of continuous firing than a bazooka will*, and unlike the bazooka, is more likely to actually hit and penetrate every time.

But they dont, thats why zook/shrecks are balanced as they are. Why dont you "assume that zooks do twice the damage" and then post trash experiment results?
I am going to guess, its not going to leave the "nerf axis" argument in a good position, isnt it?
24 Jul 2019, 02:31 AM
#284
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 785


But they dont, thats why zook/shrecks are balanced as they are. Why dont you "assume that zooks do twice the damage" and then post trash experiment results?
I am going to guess, its not going to leave the "nerf axis" argument in a good position, isnt it?


Did you miss the whole superior accuracy part on purpose or is it a reading comprehension issue on your part? The fact a bazooka or PIAT is yet still more likely to miss?

I only interjected because I see this comparison made too often as though the Bazooka or PIAT have some sort of mystical advantage over the Shrek besides the marginally faster reload.
24 Jul 2019, 02:47 AM
#285
avatar of GenObi

Posts: 556

yeah that seems a little much, the infantry killing power is okay but when it starts kill armor thats a issue.
24 Jul 2019, 03:08 AM
#286
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



Just posting here because I keep seeing this come up whenever shrecks get mentioned.

Panzershrecks have the same exact aim time as bazookas. The exact same. The absolute only downside in comparing the Panzershreck to the bazooka or PIAT is a 2.0 second longer reload time (7.75 to 5.75) and (in the case of the bazooka) marginally worse far range accuracy. The panzershreck is superior in every other regard, including short and mid range accuracy, and benefits from generally higher Axis accuracy veterancy bonuses to an extent that makes the initial .006 accuracy drop at max range compared to the bazooka meaningless.

Even the 2 second longer reload is mostly meaningless. A panzershreck, assuming it hits every time, will do more damage in a minute of continuous firing than a bazooka will*, and unlike the bazooka, is more likely to actually hit and penetrate every time.

*quick calculation 859.701492 vs 752.941177 (60/(reload+aimtime)*damage)


The vet bonuses actually favor Bazooka due to timing, especially since units have different XP values:
Accuracy for PG at vet 3
Accuracy for SP at vet 4
Rear echelon vet 1

(only the doctrinal PF get accuracy at vet 2)
24 Jul 2019, 03:59 AM
#287
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jul 2019, 03:08 AMVipper


The vet bonuses actually favor Bazooka due to timing, especially since units have different XP values:
Accuracy for PG at vet 3
Accuracy for SP at vet 4
Rear echelon vet 1

(only the doctrinal PF get accuracy at vet 2)

That would be in part offset by the Shrek being guaranteed to pen all stock allied units except brit hammer and anvil though wouldn't it? The zook might hit more but it doesn't necessarily do more.
Like if a volley of Shreks fire, 1 hits and the other misses that's 120 damage, if 2zooks shoot both hit, but only 1 pens that's about the same damage isn't it? Seems reasonable. Both having the same chance to miss but one always penning seems unreasonable if you ask me.
24 Jul 2019, 04:04 AM
#288
avatar of Mazianni

Posts: 785

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jul 2019, 03:08 AMVipper


The vet bonuses actually favor Bazooka due to timing, especially since units have different XP values:
Accuracy for PG at vet 3
Accuracy for SP at vet 4
Rear echelon vet 1

(only the doctrinal PF get accuracy at vet 2)


Last I checked, Stormtroopers recieved 40% at vet 2 as well.

The early 20% accuracy bonus to the single unit - REs - does not cancel the better accuracy bonuses overall, and the early Stormtrooper and Panzerfusilier 40% accuracy bonuses at vet 2 are just icing on the cake.

But this is wandering away from the main point, as for the most part Panzershreck weapon accuracy remains higher than Bazookas,(again, even and especially when without any vet whatsoever) and cannot in good faith be argued to be a unique drawback of the weapon when the two are compared. It's not like you're going to have much trouble vetting up with the shreks on anyway.

Further edit: On the topic of timing, a Panzershreck, as thedarkarmadillo illustrated in his own post, will remain relevant the entire game, whereas bazooka and PIAT effectiveness fall off hard in the late game.

Note I am not calling for any balance changes or nerfs with specific regard to this, but to treat the Panzershreck as in any way inferior or handicapped when compared to its allied equivalents is ludicrous. It is the best handheld AT available to any faction, hands down.

Illustrating this is the only reason I even posted in this thread.
24 Jul 2019, 04:18 AM
#289
avatar of MakiesKurisu

Posts: 130


basically a more expensive, later to come, AI dedicated, ex-trash, reactive unit (picked because of massed infantry) unit has to surrender itself to the most common units in allied openings, widely massed and highly adaptable infantry to basically become trash again.

A tool designed to deterr blobs, its going to get nerfed to not be able to do it anymore.
Do you want to promote blobbing?

The only infantry ostwind will be a killing machine for will be combat engineers and afk snipers.


Ex-trash have nothing to do with current performance.
Lower its dps outside AT infs range just give allies something moblie to defend themselves against it, Giving a chance to damage it as it do a lot damage at the same time. It does not mean it will be trash.
I play all factions. If u ever have sight of enemy light tank or M15 on the field, get a Ostwind and it will easily counter everything on the field for about 3 or 5mins and bring u huge adavantage. Some said it could be countered by comined arms, but Ostwind is not alone. The combination of Ostwind and new vet 1 PG that could follow up and provide AT support is powerfull, highly mobility and easy to use.
U may say Centaur could also pen Puma, but Puma outrange and outsight Centaur. Centaur does not overwhelm everything on the field for its timing. Let alone it do not kill infs with no cover as fast as Ostwind do through the test.
24 Jul 2019, 04:39 AM
#290
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3423 | Subs: 1


Ex-trash have nothing to do with current performance.
Lower its dps outside AT infs range just give allies something moblie to defend themselves against it


It only has 5 longer range than a zook, thats by no means a huge advantage. Brits have AEC, soviets have su76. US doesn't have a mid-game mobile option (stuart cant do much against it), but their AT gun is very good against Ost t3
24 Jul 2019, 06:58 AM
#291
avatar of distrofio

Posts: 2358

A puma outranges a centaur, therefore all allied AT infantry must outrange its dedicated AI counter.
I wonder how didnt i get it before!

A player rushing ostwinds has clearly gave up the Pz4 option, therefore there wont be a mobile dominant AT unit.

I find pretty peculiar to hear someone uses T70s, AECs, Stuarts to fight an Ostwind, given the fact that the patch changed that polarity...

But lets be honest, the ostwind nerf is not because it is OP, its because players dont want to accept the new patches. Whats next? Remove Pgren shreks?
24 Jul 2019, 07:08 AM
#292
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



Just posting here because I keep seeing this come up whenever shrecks get mentioned.

Panzershrecks have the same exact aim time as bazookas. The exact same. The absolute only downside in comparing the Panzershreck to the bazooka or PIAT is a 2.0 second longer reload time (7.75 to 5.75) and (in the case of the bazooka) marginally worse far range accuracy. The panzershreck is superior in every other regard, including short and mid range accuracy, and benefits from generally higher Axis accuracy veterancy bonuses to an extent that makes the initial .006 accuracy drop at max range compared to the bazooka meaningless.

Even the 2 second longer reload is mostly meaningless. A panzershreck, assuming it hits every time, will do more damage in a minute of continuous firing than a bazooka will*, and unlike the bazooka, is more likely to actually hit and penetrate every time.

*quick calculation 859.701492 vs 752.941177 (60/(reload+aimtime)*damage)


A nice piece of work :) Still one key element seems to be missing. 4 ma squad can shoot one volley and usually have to retreat or risk sort of totally. On a 6 man squads you can stay under fire longer. Alsi remember elite infantry have different bazooka and most importantly you can decide how many bazookas you have on which squads. It's a huge advantage. With ost you must use panzergrens and always with two. That's why they need a snare.

Umming up they shoot more sloly and must use alwsys two shrecks. With bazookas you have much more flexibility and less damage and you shoot more often
24 Jul 2019, 07:08 AM
#293
avatar of achpawel

Posts: 1351



A nice piece of work :) Still one key element seems to be missing. 4 man squad can shoot one volley and usually have to retreat or risk sort of totally. On a 6 man squads you can stay under fire longer. Alsi remember elite infantry have different bazooka and most importantly you can decide how many bazookas you have on which squads. It's a huge advantage. With ost you must use panzergrens and always with two. That's why they need a snare.
24 Jul 2019, 09:54 AM
#294
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13496 | Subs: 1



Last I checked, Stormtroopers recieved 40% at vet 2 as well.

The early 20% accuracy bonus to the single unit - REs - does not cancel the better accuracy bonuses overall, and the early Stormtrooper and Panzerfusilier 40% accuracy bonuses at vet 2 are just icing on the cake.

But this is wandering away from the main point, as for the most part Panzershreck weapon accuracy remains higher than Bazookas,(again, even and especially when without any vet whatsoever) and cannot in good faith be argued to be a unique drawback of the weapon when the two are compared. It's not like you're going to have much trouble vetting up with the shreks on anyway.

Further edit: On the topic of timing, a Panzershreck, as thedarkarmadillo illustrated in his own post, will remain relevant the entire game, whereas bazooka and PIAT effectiveness fall off hard in the late game.

Note I am not calling for any balance changes or nerfs with specific regard to this, but to treat the Panzershreck as in any way inferior or handicapped when compared to its allied equivalents is ludicrous. It is the best handheld AT available to any faction, hands down.

Illustrating this is the only reason I even posted in this thread.


No, I see no reason why bazooka and PIAT effectiveness fall off hard in the late game compared to shreck.

I would also have to guess that on average bazooka and PIAT weapons do more damage to axis


vehicles than shreck since allied blob are more frequent.



That would be in part offset by the Shrek being guaranteed to pen all stock allied units except brit hammer and anvil though wouldn't it? The zook might hit more but it doesn't necessarily do more.
Like if a volley of Shreks fire, 1 hits and the other misses that's 120 damage, if 2zooks shoot both hit, but only 1 pens that's about the same damage isn't it? Seems reasonable. Both having the same chance to miss but one always penning seems unreasonable if you ask me.

I simply pointed out that veterancy bonuses does not favor shrecks.
24 Jul 2019, 17:17 PM
#295
avatar of insaneHoshi

Posts: 911


That would be in part offset by the Shrek being guaranteed to pen all stock allied units except brit hammer and anvil though wouldn't it? The zook might hit more but it doesn't necessarily do more.
Like if a volley of Shreks fire, 1 hits and the other misses that's 120 damage, if 2zooks shoot both hit, but only 1 pens that's about the same damage isn't it? Seems reasonable. Both having the same chance to miss but one always penning seems unreasonable if you ask me.


And Bazookas coming on 200 MP squads vs 300 mp squads for Shreks may also seem unreasonable as well, perhaps the performance of Shreks should be better because the units that they are on have less men and are more expensive?
24 Jul 2019, 22:42 PM
#296
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



And Bazookas coming on 200 MP squads vs 300 mp squads for Shreks may also seem unreasonable as well, perhaps the performance of Shreks should be better because the units that they are on have less men and are more expensive?

One might argue that the 50% extra MP cost covers the 50% extra damage the Shrek does over zooks.
Shreks are less likley to hit but guaranteed to pen, they are on more expensive infantry and do more damage
Zooks fire more frequently and more accurately, but at the cost of occasionally not dealing full damage
And when they do damage they do less because it's easier to field more
Completely reasonable

You will always always always ALWAYS pay more for reliability over potential. Always.
Look at the usf AT gun for example, great ROF not great pen. Cheaper. Want more reliability? You pay for it.

Similarly on zooks actually... The super zook is available on elite infantry. Pay more get more. It's balanced in that regard

Edit and many AI weapons preform better when on elite infantry. Pay more get more is real
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