The LMG alternative

• They cloak in cover, giving them a hefty First Strike bonus when the fighting starts.
  
• They get a 0.9 penalty rather than a 0.5 accuracy penalty in a cover fight, meaning you get very little benefit from cover whereas they get the full benefit.
  
• They roll instakills at 75% health, negating the damage reducing benefits of cover.

Jump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 13:20 PMLago

JLI have 0.9 accuracy versus cover. Unless I've misunderstood the stats, the usual penalty is 0.5.

Fight them at range, they'll win.

• They cloak in cover, giving them a hefty First Strike bonus when the fighting starts.
  
• They get a 0.9 penalty rather than a 0.5 accuracy penalty in a cover fight, meaning you get very little benefit from cover whereas they get the full benefit.
  
• They roll instakills at 75% health, negating the damage reducing benefits of cover.

If you manage to get in close, they'll use their Sprint ability to go back to range. Not only do they have a huge stack of bonuses in coverfights, they've got an escape ability if you ever catch them at an advantageous range. These things can kite Shock Troops at the moment.

The only bit of good news is this CP1 infiltrating budget Obersoldaten squad also has the weakness of an Obersoldaten squad: vehicles slaughter the things, with a solid chance to wipe on retreat.

Jump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 14:24 PMddd

Fighting overperforming long range unit with underperforming long range unit is not very smart...You would rather try close range units like rangers, paras or cav rifles and closing with smoke. Jli are not very durable at close range.

Jump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 18:38 PMJae For Jett

I REALLY feel like people are overstating JLIs power. While I havent tried cav rifles, I have used AEs extensively, and they simply destroy JLI. Basically, AEs, cav rifles, and rangers should easily beat jli squads on a 1 for 1 basis. Combat wise, JLI are grens with better RA, a g43 sniper instead of an mg42, and an ambush bonus (which grens can also get with the right doctrine).

Jump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 18:38 PMJae For Jett

I REALLY feel like people are overstating JLIs power. While I havent tried cav rifles, I have used AEs extensively, and they simply destroy JLI. Basically, AEs, cav rifles, and rangers should easily beat jli squads on a 1 for 1 basis. Combat wise, JLI are grens with better RA, a g43 sniper instead of an mg42, and an ambush bonus (which grens can also get with the right doctrine).

Jump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 19:17 PMLago

They're not equivalent at all.

Against an LMG42 Grenadier squad in green cover, you can take another piece of green cover and coverfight it, with the result being down to numbers and weapon ranges as usual. You've also got the option of rushing in with a CQC unit, in which case the Grenadier has to retreat.

Neither option works against JLI. They've got such extreme bonuses against squads in green cover that your only option to fight them is to close in, and then they've got Sprint to escape that.

Your only options are heavy investment in doctrinal CQC and light vehicles. It feels a lot like playing against a Sniper, and as someone who doesn't like playing against snipers, playing against JLI is a horrible experience.

Jump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 19:22 PMLago

No snares on JLI. They rely on nearby Volks squads for protection against light vehicles. Which they can Sprint to if they've got the munitions.

Jump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 19:27 PMLeOverlord

In this case all vehicles are their counter, and in order to get a quick wipe you need M8 Greyhound and its canister shot.

Jump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 19:32 PMLago

What are you going to do before CP5? What are you going to do about the vehicular counters there are before CP5?

For USF specifically to fight JLI in their current state, you need to pick Armor or Mechanized and spam out a lot of CQC troops. Airborne and Heavy Cav don't work as well as you've only got one CQC squad which they'll kite with Sprint until it has to retreat. You can forget about other commanders entirely.

JLI as is is like Advanced Emplacements: there's a specific counterstrategy (CQC spam) that hard counters it, but do anything else and you'll have a bad time.

Jump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 19:52 PMLago

Fire Up makes the squad slow down after the sprint. It's a terrible ability nobody uses.

The commanders that work well against JLI are Armor and Mechanized: the two which give you relatively cheap close combat troops early on.

Jump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 19:17 PMLago

They're not equivalent at all.

Against an LMG42 Grenadier squad in green cover, you can take another piece of green cover and coverfight it, with the result being down to numbers and weapon ranges as usual. You've also got the option of rushing in with a CQC unit, in which case the Grenadier has to retreat.

Neither option works against JLI. They've got such extreme bonuses against squads in green cover that your only option to fight them is to close in, and then they've got Sprint to escape that.

Your only options are heavy investment in doctrinal CQC and light vehicles.

It feels a lot like playing against a Sniper. JLI are counterable, but they're not fun in the slightest. I usually want to just hit /l there and then rather than play against them.

Jump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 20:55 PMJae For Jett

I mean, I already said they get a g43 sniper instead of an mg42.

And closing actually is a viable tactic against JLI as it is against grenadiers. Having your jli sprint away to kite sounds cool and super effective until you realize:

-it costs munitions (obviously a small amount, but still)
-it means giving up the cover position you probably wanted to be holding in the first place
-you get shot in the back the entire time while youre sprinting away, with the squad still pursuing (if favorable), meaning when youre done sprinting, you can still be left in close range anyway

Basically, using sprint in small arms combat is usually suboptimal.

Also, what extreme bonuses against cover? I believe youre referring to a reduced penalty on a single weapon in the squad which relies heavily on the rest of the weapons in the squad chipping away with damage first. The rest of those weapons I referred to are gren rifles.

Jump back to quoted post1 Jan 2019, 21:13 PMLeOverlord

So our bet is CQC or simply fire and maneuver?