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russian armor

Grenadier potential: Fighting fire with fire

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12 Dec 2013, 20:42 PM
#41
avatar of MetaStable14

Posts: 95

I'm fine with grens getting molotovs as long as Soviet Industry gets a much needed buff. Is it possible to knock that Tiger Ace up to 4-Star too? It just doesn't have enough oomph for the price.
12 Dec 2013, 20:46 PM
#42
avatar of PaRaNo1a
Patrion 26

Posts: 600

I'm fine with grens getting molotovs as long as Soviet Industry gets a much needed buff. Is it possible to knock that Tiger Ace up to 4-Star too? It just doesn't have enough oomph for the price.


I think you are forgeting about 6 man cons ppsh squad and a duo LMG Gren squad.
12 Dec 2013, 20:48 PM
#43
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971

Seriusly Nullist, stop being pathetic and try to read before letting your rage go its way into your keyboard.

1) PGrens currently RAPE soviets support weapons. Increasing small arms like Aerohank said will only make the situation worse.

Killing the unit carrying the support weapons triggers again the animation of another man in the crew to carry it, making very easy to kill a maxim with PGrens. Then, no, increasing small arms to help grens will affect ALL other ger units wich doesn't have any problem killing maxims, like assgrens, pgrens, etc.

2) No, I meant that currently the situation is more balanced than ever was.

3) Learn to read. I never said it was rewarding for grens to charge a maxim. I sais is less PUNISHING, as they can still (with ammo) kill the maxim with riflegrenades, because maxim never pins.
To sum up, maxim has a ridiculous angle compared with mg42, so is easier to flank, much easier, and its rotating speed as also been nerfed.
If you actually played the game you would notice it.

4) And last.
Are you so lonely that you need to make a fuss in every fucking thread in this forum?
What age are you? Why are always so disrepectful and rude?

It says little good about this forum mods if they let characters like you to make a flame in every single thread while harassing everybody with your insults and patronizing language.
12 Dec 2013, 20:53 PM
#44
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
I tried them... And maybe its the RNG God or something else but for me Soviet mortar feels much better( not the 120mm).


I double checked the stats today on http://coh2-stats.herokuapp.com/
If they are correct, there is essentially no difference between the two units except that 81mm fires almost twice as fast.

AoE/DMG/Accuracy are the same.

Its a problem, tbh.
12 Dec 2013, 20:54 PM
#45
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
Greeb, seriously, Im no longer even bothering to read. I'm just laughing.

I tried to give you chances to be reasonable. But you don't care.
Maybe you should play some Ost once in a while. Thats my last words to you.

There was nothing offensive in my previous posts, yet you persist in being personal and offensive yourself, literally and concretely.

I have no use for someone like you. I have no value for someone like you.
The internet and this forum is full of interested, informed, objective and respectful people to communicate with who want to talk mutually to improve the game.
You aren't one of them. You mean and are nothing to me.
Bye.
12 Dec 2013, 21:00 PM
#46
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2013, 20:54 PMNullist

I tried to give you chances to be reasonable. But you don't care.
Maybe you should play some Ost once in a while.


You haven't been reasonable in this forum never.

You are a petty troll, banned from another forums, because your only hobby is to make flames and harass people here.

Stop your stupid attempts of trying to be nice and condescending, because everyone here knows how sad you really are.


jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2013, 20:54 PMNullist
Thats my last words to you.

MAY.IT.BE.TRUE

Because you have been quoting me in every thread in this forum.
Just stop that. I don't even care about your opinons or your balance.

You don't even play the game, for gods sake!!! I have more hours playing Candycrush than you at CoH2...
Guess what? Try that, go to see youtube videos of people playing Candycrush (like you do in CoH2) and start making smartass remarks about balance in the youtube comments.
They are plenty of people like you, there. You won't be alone.

So, please, stop talking to me from now on.



12 Dec 2013, 21:11 PM
#47
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

The weapon teams are fine at 4/6 men. Generally speaking German weapons are better, but more fragile, this is fine. Grens flanking any Soviet team will force a retreat unless you totally mess up micro vs a maxim, but that's on you. Pgs already demolish sov weapon teams way harder than any Soviet infantry can do to Germans. Plus there are already plenty of other counters that Germans can employ. G43, sniper, mortars, fht... etc etc. Nullist you can just stop now. Go waste your time in other threads because nothing about German weapon teams except for counter barrage needs changed. You're just wrong.

Also always amusing watching nullist cry ad hominem when he does exactly the same shit. Always so hypocritical lols.
12 Dec 2013, 21:29 PM
#48
avatar of Nullist

Posts: 2425

Permanently Banned
jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2013, 13:02 PMNullist
We have to remember what the most practical and IRL counters usually are, and what they entail.

Usually in the 6man vs 4man issue, there is an armor differential to mitigate small arms. OR, a cost one, such as on Guard at 1.5 aemor, or Shocks at 2.25.
This is not the case with Support Teams however.
For the same cost of purchase, Ost gets only 4 0 armor guys, whereas Sov gets 6 0 armor guys. And when reinforced, Sov gets 1.5 guys for every 1 guy Ost reinforces, at cost.

While its true that RNade has range, Sov Support Teams have extra models to soak that.
They also have those same extra models to soak small arms fire on a successful infantry flank.

On Osts side, however, not only does Molotov roast the units, which are tightly packed and have to categorically desetup to avoid certain eventual death from standing in it, but a successful infantry flank only has 4 0 armor models to deal with, rather than 6.

Basically, this means Ost Support Teams are not only more vulnerable to the standard infantry applied counter (Molotov/RNade), but they are also much more vulnerable to standard infantry flank small arms.

This imbalance however, extends from small arms fire, all the way to explosive later game effects, where even armor wouldnt matter. You can, simply, soak 1/3 more dmg from these as Sov, than you can as Oat, due to being only 4 man.

It wouldnt make any difference to a Molotov if they had armor. It wouldnt make any difference to Grenades, Mortars or other explosive effects either if they had armor.
All these conventional counter methods would still have full effect. But it doesnt end there. Becuase these counters have MORE effect, categorically and indisputably, on a 4 man unit as co pared to a 6 man unit.

But unfortunately, in addition to that, they are also more vulnerable to small arms flanks.
Not just a little either, but a full 1/3 more vulnerable.

How does this apply to spexific Support Teams? Well, Im glad you asked.
Its true that many Ost Suppoet Teams have beneficial stats on their main weapon.
But, are these not actually asymmetrically already balanced on Sov Teams?

PaK/ZiS: The primary difference is rate of fire. Osts is faster. But Sov has Barrage.

MG42/Maxim: Osts arc is matched by Sovs setup time. Osts DPS is entity based, Sovs is flat. Osts Suppression is now arguably inline with Sovs.

81mm/82mm: This one is more problematic, and most complicated of them. I think Osts fire rate is too high, compared to Sov. As far as I can tell from looking at stats, they are IDENTICAL except for the fire rate. Same AoE, same accuracy, same dmg. Ost Mortarnis infact categorically overperforming. It can be argued that the Vet abilities differentiate them, with Precision Strike being superior to Counter Barrage, and that may be true enough. But I think the baseline output should be adjusted. Vet can be dealt with later. Nonvet Ost Mortar is overperforming in comparison.

My primary suggestion to asymmetrically align this, is to give Sov 82mm a wider suppression AoE. This provides an indirect utility, so that even though you fire less shots (at the same dmg and accuracy) you can also force infantry down around your mortar hits.

Now, having gone over the actual Support Weapon stats, and demonstrated that they are in and of themselves asymmetrically aligned (except for Mortar), I am sure it is clear that the Crew survival differential is superfluous to those. The Weapon stats are aligned, but the Crew differential is an extrenuous unecessary imbalance.

Not only are the 4 man crews more vulnerable to simple small arms fire, but also to conventional early game counters, as well as later game explosives.

I cant find a justification for this. For the same cost, and as I demonstrated, for the same asymmetric value of the weapon itself (except for Mortar), Ost are operating at a 1/3 Crew survival deficiency against everything the opponent throws against them.

The least that could be done, is to make them less vulnerable to small arms at least.
Molotovs and Explosices will still own them at a 1/3 less survival quotient than Sov equivalents, because infsntry armor has no effect on those.

Not only that, but Ost Support Teams also cost MORE to reinforce per man, even though those men themselves have no more value than an equivalent man in a Sov Support Team.
Sov reinforces 1.5 models, for the same price Ost reinforces 1 model from an already undermanned weapon team. Add to this the games faction asymmetry when it comes to the difficult task of reinforcing Suppoet teams on the field, especially the PaK, which cannot retreat. What are our options? For Ost, they involve specialised builds, either a HT or a Re-inforce Bunker. For Sov, the option is only one, but all the more ubiquitous and readily at hand, Merge. Now, I think this is a good alignment. I have no issue with Sov/Ost onfield reinforce potential, as such. But when there is only 4man, with the vulnerability I have detailed above at length, it becomes somewhat of a real prarcial problem, especialoy in terms of reinforce costs.

Atleast make them more durable to small arms.
Is that so unreasonable to suggest, discuss and ask for?

12 Dec 2013, 22:40 PM
#49
avatar of CieZ

Posts: 1468 | Subs: 4

I'm glad you can quote yourself but that doesn't make you any more correct. If anything Soviet weapon teams are the ones that have been under performing recently. Except the 120mm mortar, but that was appropriately nerfed a couple patches back. German weapon teams are fine and don't need 6 man crews, Soviet weapon teams are fine at six men. The only issue is the strength of precision strike versus the uselessness of counter barrage.

Also, speaking to a factual error in your last point, Soviet M5 can reinforce.
12 Dec 2013, 23:05 PM
#50
avatar of Greeb

Posts: 971

jump backJump back to quoted post12 Dec 2013, 22:40 PMCieZ
German weapon teams are fine and don't need 6 man crews, Soviet weapon teams are fine at six men. The only issue is the strength of precision strike versus the uselessness of counter barrage.


Agree completely.
They are a lot of things in this game which are more needed to balance than support weapons, which currently perform reasonably well in both factions.

And, although german mortar counter barrage is completely useless, the fast barrage ability available at vet 0 is too good to make it up for.
13 Dec 2013, 00:21 AM
#51
avatar of link0

Posts: 337

Maxims are not OP because they come from an expensive T2 building that's usually not built in the beginning of the game due to that cost. They are also very vulnerable to rifle nades.

German MGs have low effective HP, but are available very early in the game. Increasing their effective HP would ruin the risk vs reward of flanking which is a gameplay dynamic that most people prefer (in vCOH, a flanked mg must instantly retreat or will die in mere seconds). An increase of armor from 1.0 to 1.5 will also make molotovs a required upgrade instead of a situational upgrade as it is now.

German mortars have higher damage output, which offsets their low effective HP.

I don't think any of the set up weapons need any major rebalancing. They are decently balanced as is. Small adjustments can be made at a later point with more statistics data.
13 Dec 2013, 01:20 AM
#52
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 927

- Soviet support squads down to 4.

- Grenadier Riflegrenade replaced by Hand-thrown Grenade (Would fix imbalance with riflegrenade huge range vs only 4 guys on soviet support weapons)

- Make Molotove first of all more expansive as an upgrade because right they could just remove the upgrade because EVERY soviet player has it researched by first engagement. Secondly make throw molotovs cost way more munitions so its not a no-brainer to ALWAYS throw molotovs. Also soviet never have to think of "do i throw molotovs or do i plant mines?" because soviet have way too much munnitions.

- Make Bolt Action Rifles on both connscripts and grenadier do much more consistent damage. Right now sometimes it feels okay, but more often than not its like they are shooting BBguns with conscripts waiting for molotov cooldown and grenadiers waiting for LMG upgrade.


These ideas is not to nerf soviet, im sure they could use buffs on other units not mention here but these ideas is for making the game actually fun and have some depth.
13 Dec 2013, 01:22 AM
#53
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 01:20 AMspajn
- Soviet support squads down to 4.

- Grenadier Riflegrenade replaced by Hand-thrown Grenade (Would fix imbalance with riflegrenade huge range vs only 4 guys on soviet support weapons)



This would create much more balance problems than it will solve. Think about sniper rate of fire, mortar rate of fire, bundle grenades etc.


jump backJump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 01:20 AMspajn

- Make Molotove first of all more expansive as an upgrade because right they could just remove the upgrade because EVERY soviet player has it researched by first engagement. Secondly make throw molotovs cost way more munitions so its not a no-brainer to ALWAYS throw molotovs. Also soviet never have to think of "do i throw molotovs or do i plant mines?" because soviet have way too much munnitions.


You have never played a game as soviets, have you?
13 Dec 2013, 04:09 AM
#54
avatar of spajn
Donator 11

Posts: 927



This would create much more balance problems than it will solve. Think about sniper rate of fire, mortar rate of fire, bundle grenades etc.




You have never played a game as soviets, have you?


Everything can be tweaked and vcoh had 3 man support squads with mortars, snipers and stormtroopers who could cloak anywhere and bundlenade and it worked perfectly.

No i have never played soviets but every replay i watch soviet are never dry onn munitions and seems to not have to sacrifice anything special to spam the map full of mines... something ostheer could never do.. well atleast say goodbye to LMG and flamerHT.. you know tradeoffs.. as it should be.
13 Dec 2013, 07:36 AM
#55
avatar of link0

Posts: 337

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 04:09 AMspajn


Everything can be tweaked and vcoh had 3 man support squads with mortars, snipers and stormtroopers who could cloak anywhere and bundlenade and it worked perfectly.

No i have never played soviets but every replay i watch soviet are never dry onn munitions and seems to not have to sacrifice anything special to spam the map full of mines... something ostheer could never do.. well atleast say goodbye to LMG and flamerHT.. you know tradeoffs.. as it should be.


When I play soviets, I almost never float over 100 munitions. I also don't use any commanders with artillery call ins. I VERY RARELY even use Horrrah, because it's too expensive now. Almost all of my munitions go towards mines, molotovs, and guard rifle lmgs, and nades. Soviets are almost as munitions hungry as ostheer, IMO.
13 Dec 2013, 07:45 AM
#56
avatar of DietBrownie

Posts: 308

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 07:36 AMlink0


When I play soviets, I almost never float over 100 munitions. I also don't use any commanders with artillery call ins. I VERY RARELY even use Horrrah, because it's too expensive now. Almost all of my munitions go towards mines, molotovs, and guard rifle lmgs, and nades. Soviets are almost as munitions hungry as ostheer, IMO.


Same thing for me, I actually never have enough for OP strafe. I wouldn't say as hungry as Ostheer though. But I do agree some strats require just as much munitions availability, while Ostheer needs all the munnies they an get regardless of strat.
13 Dec 2013, 08:46 AM
#57
avatar of Fortune109

Posts: 10

As much as I enjoy this conversation at hand in terms of crew weapon survivability balance, I would like to ask, what can cause a successful grenadier flank of a russian crew weapon to actually have force retreating potential. I didn't mean to suggest an overpowered grenadier with molotovs AND rifle grenades, but to give grenadiers a more viable ability to use when flanking (with rifle grenades not really requiring flanking ability due to long range), or in close small firearm engagements with conscripts and other infantry.

I would love for grenadiers to swap rifle grenades to an incendiary grenade as in VCOH, both sides had grenades and mines for the same cost munitionwise, and quite frankly I didn't have any qualms with them being near identical abilities.
13 Dec 2013, 09:09 AM
#58
avatar of SgtBulldog

Posts: 688

Some players simply won't give it rest untill the MG42 is back to the God mode from august.
13 Dec 2013, 10:09 AM
#59
avatar of Fortune109

Posts: 10

but its grenadiers I mentioned not mg42.....
13 Dec 2013, 10:15 AM
#60
avatar of Aradan

Posts: 1003

jump backJump back to quoted post13 Dec 2013, 07:36 AMlink0


When I play soviets, I almost never float over 100 munitions. I also don't use any commanders with artillery call ins. I VERY RARELY even use Horrrah, because it's too expensive now. Almost all of my munitions go towards mines, molotovs, and guard rifle lmgs, and nades. Soviets are almost as munitions hungry as ostheer, IMO.


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