Firefly is too weak

I doubt any changes would affect its match ups either since Brits are sitting at a fairly low win-rate across all game modes.

True to that. I don't have intention of playing UKF even after commander patch. Some major changes & buffs needs to be done to the faction. (I have posted like 3~4 threads to say this.) But it's not coming with commander patch. We need to wait at least until spring of 22 to see that.

Sure, the Firefly has lower penetration. Quite low at 210 long range. But let's be real. Chance to penetrate an OKW P4 is 90%, which is more than enough. And with 200 (240 vet3) damage, it can seriously stop any sort of advances. Tulips received a much welcome price reduction so they are not as seldom as they used to be. Firefly doesn't need any buffs or nerfs. I've been using the Firefly every time I played brits (I haven't played brits a lot of times though) and I've always considered it to be the best TD in teamgames, especially with vet3.

On its own the Firefly can feel a bit lacklustre. However it's the vehicle that benefits the most from command vehicle aura, and with that it becomes an absolute monster. The 8 second reload is cut to 5.6 seconds, the far penetration goes from 210 to 240 and the far accuracy increases from 0.4 to 0.5. So it's firing as fast as a panther, with more damage, penetration and a lot more accuracy. This really helps the Firefly start racking up the damage and gaining veterency. At vet 3 it's a different animal all together with the aura bonuses. 240 damage on a 4 second reload with 0.65 far accuracy gives it the highest damage output of any vehicle apart from the super heavy TDs.

USF and SOV usually only have jackson and su-85 as only tank vs tank option.

UKF has a good range of late-game tanks to choose from, be it firefly, comet or churchill.
It would make sense to make firefly not as great as Su-85 or jackson, as to diversify with combined arms.

on a side note, sappers have snare, and can equip 2x piats, cheap unit that can snare and kill tanks

on a side note, sappers have snare, and can equip 2x piats, cheap unit that can snare and kill tanks

Ok so do Riflemen and Penals. Whats your point?

The Firefly is a really valuable unit that does its job well. I dont see why it needs changes tbh.

Ok so do Riflemen and Penals. Whats your point?

The Firefly is a really valuable unit that does its job well. I dont see why it needs changes tbh.

I mean the point is clearly that they're significantly cheaper, more durable and don't sacrifice firepower with their AT upgrade. And they're getting more buffs next patch.

He wants to nerf Firefly because 'Other allies have TD's' and his reasoning is 'Brits already have at inf with snares, either that or hes stating the obvious for no reason.

I'm aware of all of your points and would like to point out the incorrect parts. I do not advocate what BetterDead is saying, I think you do but it's hard to tell. However, I think we might be confused as REngis are not more durable than AT Rifles or AT penals. And all 3 sacrifice 'firepower' if you are referring to Anti Infantry.

Next patch is interesting but irrelevant here as the Firefly is getting changes as well, is it not? Tightrope has already tried the Engi build and I've been doing it for quite a while. Im interested to see how it pans out.

replay pls

There needs to be stronger counters to the Panther while the Panther retains its great AI

Just stop.

However, I think we might be confused as REngis are not more durable than AT Rifles or AT penals. And all 3 sacrifice 'firepower' if you are referring to Anti Infantry.

Per model and with equal veterancy Royal engineers are slightly more durable than riflemen and vastly more durable than penals.

Vet 0 RE have 0.9 recieved accuracy, rifles have 0.97 and penals have 1.0.
Vet 3 RE have 0.59, rifles have 0.64 and penals have 0.85 (the lower the better)

No, it is not.

Tanithscout
was only stating the obvious, not wanting to nerf firefly, but i was comparing the penetration between the allied TD's, and meant that UKF has more tank vs tank options than sov or USF, and that firefly having the lowest penetration is somewhat justified

In my experience REngis take much more casualties, stock and vett'd, than Rifles and Penals even making use of cover at every opportunity, waiting to engage so they aren't automatically targetted etc. I feel like this aspect is overlooked in general on the forums where stats are too important imo. So I am replying to your original with context and the post here. While UKF might have a strong 'AT Inf' squad to make up for Fireflies 'weakness' I dont think it works that game in actual gameplay, at all.

Discussing the uniqueness of Allied TDs and what they bring personally I feel is already obvious, thus doesn't need to be stated. Nut we will since thats where the topics gone; Firefly is the toughest and most versatile of the TD's. In typical UKF fashion, this is a trend among the faction. You can play how you want (USF's aggression and mobility vs Soviets support style) but you must realize the sacrifices to get to choose this. The ONLY way I think the Firefly could be considered as weak is the muni cost of Tulips, but seeing how potent they COULD be justifies this. They are very strong initiation and counter initiation for the REngi's which, again personally, I feel is under utilized correctly by many people I see playing.

No, it is not.

Pretty much

Per model and with equal veterancy Royal engineers are slightly more durable than riflemen and vastly more durable than penals.

Vet 0 RE have 0.9 recieved accuracy, rifles have 0.97 and penals have 1.0.
Vet 3 RE have 0.59, rifles have 0.64 and penals have 0.85 (the lower the better)

This becomes even more pronounced when you factor in RE's access to Armour through the Anvil specialisation, too.

It's worth considering that Penals are a little more durable when it comes to explosives though, due to their extra man... and also that "TO THE LAST MAN!" provides an RA bonus to the squad as members are lost. I'm not actually sure how you'd calculate their EHP with that in mind, though.

This becomes even more pronounced when you factor in RE's access to Armour through the Anvil specialisation, too.

It's worth considering that Penals are a little more durable when it comes to explosives though, due to their extra man... and also that "TO THE LAST MAN!" provides an RA bonus to the squad as members are lost. I'm not actually sure how you'd calculate their EHP with that in mind, though.

I'll say half or 2/3 the bonus since models are not sniped 1 by 1. For simple math sake, let's say 2/3.

80 + 80/0.98 + 80/0.9604 etc.

In my experience REngis take much more casualties, stock and vett'd, than Rifles and Penals even making use of cover at every opportunity, waiting to engage so they aren't automatically targetted etc.

This comes down to usage and not inherent durability. If you use rifles and penals at mid and long range, and RE at close range, then RE inherently will have to suffer more casualties since they have to close distance. This is completely separate from whether a unit of RE will die faster to continuous fire than a rifleman squad in a controlled environment.

This comes down to usage and not inherent durability. If you use rifles and penals at mid and long range, and RE at close range, then RE inherently will have to suffer more casualties since they have to close distance. This is completely separate from whether a unit of RE will die faster to continuous fire than a rifleman squad in a controlled environment.

True, but it is a more realistic gameplay situation is it not?

I'm not weak!

True, but it is a more realistic gameplay situation is it not?

That doesnt make them less durable though. It would be like saying shocks are less durable than guards because shocks have to close distance and take extra damage on approach.

That doesnt make them less durable though. It would be like saying shocks are less durable than guards because shocks have to close distance and take extra damage on approach.

The churchill is squishier than the katyusha because the Katy stays behind the lines!