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russian armor

Redesign Penal battalions

8 May 2017, 11:03 AM
#1
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13074 | Subs: 1

Penal have been proven difficult to find their place so this i a different approach.
Penal become a cheap (200-240)infantry unit armed with PPsh. they vet ability is a sprint ability that allows them to fire but increase their Target size and scale with veterancy. At certain vet level (depending on XP value and cost)they are allow to redeem themselves and upgrade to one of the following: shtrafbat (an elite version of the unit), Gaurds, Shock troops for a MP cost.

This changes will
1) Allow Soviet to delay doctrine choice and still have access to elite infantry via Penal.
2) Allow conscripts and Penal to work together as defensive offensive infantry.
3) Offer better historical feel with Penal being an expendable infantry capable of becoming elite like the Soviet 16th Army.


(some changes will be needed for conscripts but I can explain those later)
8 May 2017, 11:19 AM
#2
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7





I don´t want to see clown car with ppsh squad inside at 0 minute mark
8 May 2017, 11:54 AM
#3
avatar of Hater

Posts: 493

I like the idea from somewhere nearby to swap guards and penals, with making penals 'sov osstruppen'. If not Guard-motor-version then at least Land-lease-version, because stock PTRS is too much. Maybe even some new version of guards with both PTRS and DP upgrades.
8 May 2017, 11:54 AM
#4
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13074 | Subs: 1


I don´t want to see clown car with ppsh squad inside at 0 minute mark


That is a different issue:
Infantry garrisoning m3 being able to fire is inconstancy that needs to be fixed. Fuel price should be dropped to 0 and unit inside the m3 not able to fire.

An upgrade for units being able to fire from m3 could be available.
8 May 2017, 12:05 PM
#5
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post8 May 2017, 11:54 AMVipper


That is a different issue:
Infantry garrisoning m3 being able to fire is inconstancy that needs to be fixed. Fuel price should be dropped to 0 and unit inside the m3 not able to fire.

An upgrade for units being able to fire from m3 could be available.



I don´t know. First we´ll have to focus on fixing conscripts and call ins problem (infantry and tanks alike), before we move to "more cosmetical issues"
8 May 2017, 12:22 PM
#6
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13074 | Subs: 1


I don´t know. First we´ll have to focus on fixing conscripts and call ins problem (infantry and tanks alike), before we move to "more cosmetical issues"

Once can not simply "Fix" conscripts on their own.

All infantry available before minute one need to be rebalanced as it was done in the September patch around the principles of weapon profiles and relative positioning.

Finally Conscript seem to less bad then people claim since they where used in the tournament extensively and Soviet had some of the highest win rates.

They= issue seems to have more to do with allowing room for all Soviet infantry units to be used than "fixing" a specific unit, and that it the direction of proposed solution. So for each time a Soviet unit is "fixed" all other Soviet units are left in oblivion.
nee
8 May 2017, 22:27 PM
#7
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

jump backJump back to quoted post8 May 2017, 11:03 AMVipper


This changes will
1) Allow Soviet to delay doctrine choice and still have access to elite infantry via Penal.
2) Allow conscripts and Penal to work together as defensive offensive infantry.
3) Offer better historical feel with Penal being an expendable infantry capable of becoming elite like the Soviet 16th Army.


(some changes will be needed for conscripts but I can explain those later)


Problem is that it doesn't so much delay doctrinal choice but risk making them irrelevant. Penal Ppsh means no point choosing Conscript Ppsh package and Shock Troops, in the same way Penal PTRS replaces Guards.
Penals have a complicate history that's more than mere human wave expendable infantry consisting of thugs; not like historical accuracy matters anyways.
8 May 2017, 22:52 PM
#8
avatar of Imagelessbean

Posts: 1585 | Subs: 1

Maybe I missed it, but what is wrong with Penals right now? They perform very good AI and can be upgraded to help deal with armor.

What you are offering is to make T1 a downgraded conscript, that eventually allows you to get better scripts. However, you will lose by then. Going T1 gives up map control and you have to fight to regain it. Making the squad that fights worse is only going to steam roll into complete map loss.
8 May 2017, 23:36 PM
#9
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 593

penals are fine how they are. they already been nerfed to a balanced spot
8 May 2017, 23:36 PM
#10
avatar of ZombiFrancis

Posts: 2742

Maybe I missed it, but what is wrong with Penals right now? They perform very good AI and can be upgraded to help deal with armor.


Probably the same issues as before the patch, which was their high AI capabilities, especially before 2 CPs. (Their AI capabilities are the most unintuitive as well, as they improve as they lose models, and their SVTs operate in an odd capacity.)

Penals veterancy was nerfed, they can't get flamethrowers, but can stick their satchels on vehicles. They can buy PTRS now too. They no longer have their most critical weakness.

But they are relatively unchanged as a fresh squad in the early game.

The flamethrowers allowed them to deny cover and garrisons. Removing them has done much to reduce their AI impact, especially when rushed with the first 60 munis. Their strength doesn't snowball NEARLY as much into the early-mid game either. Their veterancy is not as powerful which further reduces their AI impact.

But their power without flamethrowers and before vet 3 is still quite considerable.

8 May 2017, 23:37 PM
#11
avatar of frostbite

Posts: 593

when u think a penal is going to sach u... just try to smash them they will all wipe... its not a good thing if u know what ur doing
9 May 2017, 07:07 AM
#12
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13074 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post8 May 2017, 22:27 PMnee


Problem is that it doesn't so much delay doctrinal choice but risk making them irrelevant. Penal Ppsh means no point choosing Conscript Ppsh package and Shock Troops, in the same way Penal PTRS replaces Guards.
Penals have a complicate history that's more than mere human wave expendable infantry consisting of thugs; not like historical accuracy matters anyways.

Conscripts could easily have their PPsh upgrade replaced with 6 toned SVT improving their performance where their are designed to fight mid. Mixing Smg and bolt action rifles is bad design. The difference with Shock troops is substantial since they would be cheap and expendable instead of tough and expensive.
9 May 2017, 07:17 AM
#13
avatar of TickTack

Posts: 564

penals are fine how they are. they already been nerfed to a balanced spot

QFT ffs.

These endless penal posts are so l2p. Fuckin facepalm.
nee
9 May 2017, 08:10 AM
#14
avatar of nee

Posts: 1216

jump backJump back to quoted post9 May 2017, 07:07 AMVipper

Conscripts could easily have their PPsh upgrade replaced with 6 toned SVT improving their performance where their are designed to fight mid. Mixing Smg and bolt action rifles is bad design. The difference with Shock troops is substantial since they would be cheap and expendable instead of tough and expensive.
But you still just have Conscripts = Penals, and Penals =Shocks/ Guards. You make doctrinal units redundant entirely.
Conscripts getting SVTs is even less of what you get when you just train vanilla Penals. Conscripts are basically there for doctrinal stuff, AT grenades and Merge.

Though to be fair that's pretty much how it can only go, without actually redesigning Guards and Shocks.

The better idea is to try to improve Conscripts without making them Penals 2.0, or ersatz Shocks. We already have that with Penal PTRS
9 May 2017, 08:55 AM
#15
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13074 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post9 May 2017, 08:10 AMnee
But you still just have Conscripts = Penals, and Penals =Shocks/ Guards. You make doctrinal units redundant entirely.
Conscripts getting SVTs is even less of what you get when you just train vanilla Penals. Conscripts are basically there for doctrinal stuff, AT grenades and Merge.

Though to be fair that's pretty much how it can only go, without actually redesigning Guards and Shocks.

The better idea is to try to improve Conscripts without making them Penals 2.0, or ersatz Shocks. We already have that with Penal PTRS


Actually no. The design is about turning:
1)Conscripts into a defensive infantry good at mid range
2)Turning Penal into a cheap flanking infantry that can later be upgraded
10 May 2017, 05:58 AM
#16
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 4314 | Subs: 7

Maybe I missed it, but what is wrong with Penals right now? They perform very good AI and can be upgraded to help deal with armor.

What you are offering is to make T1 a downgraded conscript, that eventually allows you to get better scripts. However, you will lose by then. Going T1 gives up map control and you have to fight to regain it. Making the squad that fights worse is only going to steam roll into complete map loss.


+1

The 20 seconds tier1 build time is big setback on itself. You literaly give your enemy 20 seconds of opportunity, to get key locations/buildings/cap. That´s the main reason why many players are going 3 engi into tier 1 right now - to save time and get those key positions
10 May 2017, 06:49 AM
#17
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13074 | Subs: 1



+1

The 20 seconds tier1 build time is big setback on itself. You literaly give your enemy 20 seconds of opportunity, to get key locations/buildings/cap. That´s the main reason why many players are going 3 engi into tier 1 right now - to save time and get those key positions

Off Topic:
And that is one of the issues with Ostheer who have waste time to build T1 to get a mainline infantry or built 2 pioneers.

On the other hand that does not change the fact that Penal are the strongest infantry in their time frame and the problems that derive from that.
10 May 2017, 07:35 AM
#18
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

Without reworked conscripts is no way to rework penals, because now no one soviet don't build conscripts. Penals comparison to conscripts looking very good. Conscripts right now is only selfguided AT grenade and nothing else (i even can't remember when i last time saw molotols....). Right way - rework conscripts and only THEN rework penals looking on new conscripts.
10 May 2017, 07:39 AM
#19
avatar of Maret

Posts: 711

Another problem is nerfed maxim in T2. Earlier if you build T2, you had maxims and cons, but now you have "bad" HMG and bad cons. T2 now need only for AT and mortars. This another reason so high popularity of T1 and lend lease commander.
10 May 2017, 07:55 AM
#20
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1976 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post10 May 2017, 07:39 AMMaret
Another problem is nerfed maxim in T2. Earlier if you build T2, you had maxims and cons, but now you have "bad" HMG and bad cons. T2 now need only for AT and mortars. This another reason so high popularity of T1 and lend lease commander.


You forgot to say a bad mortar, I prefer an overnerf American M1 (does more damage In auto shooting) than the Soviet PM. Only ZiS does its work reliably in T2
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