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Why Soviets are OP

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23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AM
#1
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 444

1. Merging Flamethrower - Insanely strong vs OKW because it doesnt have early suppression
2. Sandbags - Cons behind sandbags are the most cost efficient unit in the game, you need at least two close range infantry squads to dislodge them
3. Mines - the wide availability of mines due to low ammonution needs and cheap engineers requires axis to sweep all their attack routes and doesn't let them cap freely on the flanks without risking wipes, sufficient sweeping is almost impossible when you only have one sweeper as OKW, a second Sturmpio ruins the army composition due to terrible OKW pop cap
4. ZIS Gun - two of these combined with mines, at nades and t70 vision keep any realistic amount of medium armor away, they also severely limit Axis ability to use support weapons aggressively and offer significant late game wipe potential both thanks to the broken barrage ability
5. T70 - Super reliable Anti Infantry, very high wipe potential, insanely strong vision ability, only weakness is timing
6. Trip Wire Flares - with ammunition barely playing a role for soviets these can be spammed everywhere, kill+vision is too cost efficient
7. Pop Cap - 100 Pop soviet army straight up beats 100 pop OKW army, 100 Pop Soviet vs 100 Pop Wehr is at least equal in strength and way easier to play
8. KV1 - Insanely strong combined with ZIS
9. KV2 - Wipe machine, unbeatable on certain maps (Brummbär is similar in that he excels on certain maps like Elst in 2v2 or Bayeux Assault in 1v1, but Brummbär is much harder to use)
10. T34/76 - Way cheaper than P4 but does the exact same thing, direct battles between the two rarely ever happen anyways and even then T34 isn't much weaker, very easy to reach critical mass with these
11. T34/85 - Strongest medium in the game?
12. Dshka - Broken
13. Ram + AT Arty/AT Strafe - obviously op
14. 7men cons - nobrainer update that can be easily afforded most of the time and has no real trade offs and makes it almost impossible for Soviets to lose infantry late game
23 Sep 2020, 07:48 AM
#2
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15807 | Subs: 7

Tl;dr:
Soviets are still soviets and people will never stop overlooking weaknesses and underlining strong sides.
23 Sep 2020, 08:00 AM
#3
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 444

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 07:48 AMKatitof
Tl;dr:
Soviets are still soviets and people will never stop overlooking weaknesses and underlining strong sides.


What are these supposed weaknesses?
23 Sep 2020, 08:22 AM
#4
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15807 | Subs: 7

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 08:00 AMGiaA


What are these supposed weaknesses?

Weak early game map control(penals or T2 openings), reliance on map control over combat potential with con openings, bad scaling of cons through mid game, leading to almost mandatory reliance of crutch T-70 especially in 1v1, over reliance on TD due to stock med armor just not being competitive against P4s outside of very lucky RNG streaks or overextentions, heavy infantry mp bleed in mid game.
23 Sep 2020, 08:52 AM
#5
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4613

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 08:22 AMKatitof
Weak early game map control(penals or T2 openings), reliance on map control over combat potential with con openings, bad scaling of cons through mid game, leading to almost mandatory reliance of crutch T-70 especially in 1v1, over reliance on TD due to stock med armor just not being competitive against P4s outside of very lucky RNG streaks or overextentions, heavy infantry mp bleed in mid game.


Also Conscripts still have only 1 item slot (all other mains have 2) and don't have any weapon upgrades. They're also the only non-Osttruppen/gun crew unit to have a target size higher than 1. Sometimes I feel like Relic is afraid of making Conscripts too powerful.
23 Sep 2020, 09:31 AM
#6
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1641 | Subs: 2

T-34-76 is far from being an OP. This is the worst tank in the game. His cannon is good at AI but very bad at AT. So the T-34-76 in general is a big T-70. Therefore, the SU-85 is the main tank on the battlefield at the end of the game. His 1st veterancy is pointless. The T-34-76 is only good as a kamikaze unit in conjunction with the Airborne Forces commander. Just because it's cheap doesn't mean it's cool. Its price reflects its performance as a medium tank - which is the worst of the medium.
23 Sep 2020, 09:37 AM
#7
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 444

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 08:22 AMKatitof

Weak early game map control(penals or T2 openings), reliance on map control over combat potential with con openings, bad scaling of cons through mid game, leading to almost mandatory reliance of crutch T-70 especially in 1v1, over reliance on TD due to stock med armor just not being competitive against P4s outside of very lucky RNG streaks or overextentions, heavy infantry mp bleed in mid game.


Penals and t2 are out of the equasion, thats like saying wehr is weak because MG42 spam sucks. Cons don't scale badly.
23 Sep 2020, 09:38 AM
#8
avatar of SuperHansFan

Posts: 833

The game could use a popcap patch in general

MGs and ATG are too easy to fit into builds late game. Like you can have T34s and SUs, a vet t70, infantry core and still fit in double ZIS and dskhs no problem. You can't really do this with UKF with Churchill, FF, bolstered section pop which all cost more than their sov counterparts. USF has the advantage of decrew, but they also have to sink pop into ambo and officers. The only faction that trades popcap for healing

Not to mention the ZIS also doubles as a mortar you can see why this is problematic. You can really just lock down as soviets, similar to how old Ost could with mobile defense meta

OKW only really need one sturm for repairs, obers are costly but are worth the pop after vet 2. I feel like okw only struggle if you rely on volks late game
23 Sep 2020, 09:39 AM
#9
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1401

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AMGiaA
1. Merging Flamethrower - Insanely strong vs OKW because it doesnt have early suppression

at the price of not having nondoc weapon upgrades on infantry

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AMGiaA

2. Sandbags - Cons behind sandbags are the most cost efficient unit in the game, you need at least two close range infantry squads to dislodge them

everyone but USF gets nondoc sandbags and tommies would like to have a word with you

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AMGiaA

3. Mines - the wide availability of mines due to low ammonution needs and cheap engineers requires axis to sweep all their attack routes and doesn't let them cap freely on the flanks without risking wipes, sufficient sweeping is almost impossible when you only have one sweeper as OKW, a second Sturmpio ruins the army composition due to terrible OKW pop cap

OKW gets mines and OST gets even better mines

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AMGiaA

4. ZIS Gun - two of these combined with mines, at nades and t70 vision keep any realistic amount of medium armor away, they also severely limit Axis ability to use support weapons aggressively and offer significant late game wipe potential both thanks to the broken barrage ability

yeah the zis is strong since it has barrage but its DPS and penetration is kinda low for an AT gun soo it doesnt exactly come without drawbacks

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AMGiaA

5. T70 - Super reliable Anti Infantry, very high wipe potential, insanely strong vision ability, only weakness is timing

yep the T-70 is strong

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AMGiaA

6. Trip Wire Flares - with ammunition barely playing a role for soviets these can be spammed everywhere, kill+vision is too cost efficient

ehh no opinion on this... but yeah the flares are considered good

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AMGiaA

7. Pop Cap - 100 Pop soviet army straight up beats 100 pop OKW army, 100 Pop Soviet vs 100 Pop Wehr is at least equal in strength and way easier to play

wehr lategame just recieved several buffs such as more brummbar armor and cheaper T4 reinforcement and capping

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AMGiaA

8. KV1 - Insanely strong combined with ZIS

yeah the KV-1 is really gucci

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AMGiaA

9. KV2 - Wipe machine, unbeatable on certain maps (Brummbär is similar in that he excels on certain maps like Elst in 2v2 or Bayeux Assault in 1v1, but Brummbär is much harder to use)

the KV-2 isnt as meta as something like an IS-2 or a tiger... granted urban defense is a strong commander

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AMGiaA

10. T34/76 - Way cheaper than P4 but does the exact same thing, direct battles between the two rarely ever happen anyways and even then T34 isn't much weaker, very easy to reach critical mass with these

the T-34-76 is good unit but compared to the panzer 4 the T-34-76 would actually come later than the panzer 4 because soviet teching is more expensive than OST teching... as a result when the panzer 4 faces the T-34-76 it is usually forced into a backfoot role of flank defense as opposed to a proper medium tank


jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AMGiaA

11. T34/85 - Strongest medium in the game?

definitely

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AMGiaA

12. Dshka - Broken

its the only usable soviet machinegun... buff the maxim into a proper machinegun then you can nerf the DSHK

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AMGiaA

13. Ram + AT Arty/AT Strafe - obviously op

ram is probably the best use for the T-34-76... if you want ram gone then you need to give it something else like APCR rounds else it literally will not be used

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 05:38 AMGiaA

14. 7men cons - nobrainer update that can be easily afforded most of the time and has no real trade offs and makes it almost impossible for Soviets to lose infantry late game


it has trade offs
1. it doesnt have the DPS of weapon upgrades/pickups like the SVT/LMG42/34/bar/M1919/bren/stg/DP-28 having lost its reload buff in cover soo its DPS is purely from the additional 1x mosin nagant whereas the DP-28 has thrice the DPS of a mosin while the LMG-42 is almost twice as strong as a DP-28...
"Reload cover bonus from the Mobilize Reserves has been removed."
2. it still requires reinforcement to hit seven man
3. it comes soo late to all of these weapon upgrades that the upgrade if anything needs to come much sooner... maybe T1/2 + sidegrade unlock
23 Sep 2020, 09:54 AM
#10
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 444

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 09:39 AMgbem

at the price of not having nondoc weapon upgrades on infantry


everyone but USF gets nondoc sandbags and tommies would like to have a word with you


OKW gets mines and OST gets even better mines


yeah the zis is strong since it has barrage but its DPS and penetration is kinda low for an AT gun soo it doesnt exactly come without drawbacks


yep the T-70 is strong


ehh no opinion on this... but yeah the flares are considered good


wehr lategame just recieved several buffs such as more brummbar armor and cheaper T4 reinforcement and capping


yeah the KV-1 is really gucci


the KV-2 isnt as meta as something like an IS-2 or a tiger... granted urban defense is a strong commander


the T-34-76 is good unit but compared to the panzer 4 the T-34-76 would actually come later than the panzer 4 because soviet teching is more expensive than OST teching... as a result when the panzer 4 faces the T-34-76 it is usually forced into a backfoot role of flank defense as opposed to a proper medium tank



definitely


its the only usable soviet machinegun... buff the maxim into a proper machinegun then you can nerf the DSHK


ram is probably the best use for the T-34-76... if you want ram gone then you need to give it something else like APCR rounds else it literally will not be used



it has trade offs
1. it doesnt have the DPS of weapon upgrades/pickups like the SVT/LMG42/34/bar/M1919/bren/stg/DP-28 having lost its reload buff in cover soo its DPS is purely from the additional 1x mosin nagant whereas the DP-28 has thrice the DPS of a mosin while the LMG-42 is almost twice as strong as a DP-28...
"Reload cover bonus from the Mobilize Reserves has been removed."
2. it still requires reinforcement to hit seven man
3. it comes soo late to all of these weapon upgrades that the upgrade if anything needs to come much sooner... maybe T1/2 + sidegrade unlock


7men is effectively a weapon upgrade.

Tommy sandbags are also problematic, but not as much due to smaller squad size and the fact that you can charge tommies. Axis sandbags are much weaker because volks can be charged by rifles/cons and out dps'd by tommies at long range.

ZIS is op even WITH those weakspots.

Wehr lategame reinforcement cost decrease is insignificant. Capping buff even more so.

KV2 is way more meta than IS2.

Maxim isn't great but far from useless.

Realistically you'd never see someone not go 7men as long as he has enough ammo which is the case most of the time. There are theoretical disadvantages but they can be disregarded.

Edit: OKW cant spam mines because it needs ammo and doesn't have 2 engies. Wehr mines function completely differently.
23 Sep 2020, 10:07 AM
#11
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1401

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 09:54 AMGiaA

7men is effectively a weapon upgrade.

with less DPS than an actual weapon upgrade

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 09:54 AMGiaA

Tommy sandbags are also problematic, but not as much due to smaller squad size and the fact that you can charge tommies. Axis sandbags are much weaker because volks can be charged by rifles/cons and out dps'd by tommies at long range.

i dont get how the FAR SUPERIOR tommy squad which is 5 man after the upgrade and can get double brens and sniper rifles at vet 3 isnt as much of a problem as the large target size low dps 6 man conscript squad that cant even get weapon upgrades till T3+ or T4 and loses to a charging stg volk...

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 09:54 AMGiaA

ZIS is op even WITH those weakspots.

yeah the zis is strong... no doubt about it...

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 09:54 AMGiaA

Wehr lategame reinforcement cost decrease is insignificant. Capping buff even more so.

wehr recieves a -2 manpower reforce cost at T4 for free... the soviets recieve a -2 manpower reinforce cost at T4 after paying 50 munitions...

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 09:54 AMGiaA

KV2 is way more meta than IS2.

i... wouldnt exactly say so... i saw the IS-2 a few more times than i saw a KV-2 in the tourney...

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 09:54 AMGiaA

Maxim isn't great but far from useless.


it would be unwise to touch the DSHK till the maxim becomes a proper machinegun instead of hot trash

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 09:54 AMGiaA

Realistically you'd never see someone not go 7men as long as he has enough ammo which is the case most of the time. There are theoretical disadvantages but they can be disregarded.


you mean like stg volks m1919/bar rifles bren sections and LMG/5 man grens?

also those disadvantages are not theoretical... 7 man do not have the same DPS as something like an LMG42 BAR etc and 7 man cons loses to LMG grens in most shootouts unless theyre used as support...
23 Sep 2020, 10:11 AM
#12
avatar of Hannibal
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 1320 | Subs: 1

This thread will probably go nowhere.
Half of what you pointed out are actual faction design points to keep flavor for Soviets, just like other factions have their specialties. You do not try to explain why you think they were OP, you just state that they are without backing it up.

A lot of other points revolve around Soviet munitions float: yes, Soviets can float munitions early on. That does not mean they have more overall.
They spend usually about 4x50 on on Conscripts in the mid late game, Ostheer usually spends 3x60 on grens and OKW 3-4x60 on Volks. It's not far off, just the timing is different. This by itself could be an issue, but also here you never try to reason why that was the case.
23 Sep 2020, 10:15 AM
#13
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 187

A lot of other points revolve around Soviet munitions float: yes, Soviets can float munitions early on. That does not mean they have more overall.
They spend usually about 4x50 on on Conscripts in the mid late game, Ostheer usually spends 3x60 on grens and OKW 3-4x60 on Volks. It's not far off, just the timing is different. This by itself could be an issue, but also here you never try to reason why that was the case.


Also, Mines. The only real use of CE's.
23 Sep 2020, 10:15 AM
#14
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 444

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 10:07 AMgbem

with less DPS than an actual weapon upgrade


i dont get how the FAR SUPERIOR tommy squad which is 5 man after the upgrade and can get double brens and sniper rifles at vet 3 isnt as much of a problem as the large target size low dps 6 man conscript squad that cant even get weapon upgrades till T3+ or T4 and loses to a charging stg volk...


yeah the zis is strong... no doubt about it...


wehr recieves a -2 manpower reforce cost at T4 for free... the soviets recieve a -2 manpower reinforce cost at T4 after paying 50 munitions...


i... wouldnt exactly say so... i saw the IS-2 a few more times than i saw a KV-2 in the tourney...



it would be unwise to touch the DSHK till the maxim becomes a proper machinegun instead of hot trash



you mean like stg volks m1919/bar rifles bren sections and LMG/5 man grens?

also those disadvantages are not theoretical... 7 man do not have the same DPS as something like an LMG42 BAR etc and 7 man cons loses to LMG grens in most shootouts unless theyre used as support...


1. Because you generally play a green cover negating sniper vs brits. Try that vs soviets. You need to outclass your opponent by at least one level to make it work.

2. Manpower reinforce cost reduction is completely insignificant either way.

3. Maxim isn't hot trash. You make it seem like a meme unit. It's not. It's not good but has its uses.

4.I was only responding to your point that it is not a no brainer upgrade. Never said the otehr factions don't have no brainer weapon uprades.
23 Sep 2020, 10:15 AM
#15
avatar of CreativeName

Posts: 162

Only speaking about 1v1 and 2v2:
Soviets have the strongest late game with very strong doctrines to fill the gap. the main problems are their pop cap, which is insanly efficient and the zis gun that can used as indirect when needed. Most other armies cant afford indirect in 1v1 as manpower and popcap are very tight.

Once the soviet army is set up with double zis, mines, t70, sandbags, 7man cons, mediums/heavy etc, it is very tough to almost impossible to break their line.
The problem is the synergy of their combined arms is simply stronger than any other army, so there isnt an obvious nerf that would fix this issue.
23 Sep 2020, 10:17 AM
#16
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 15807 | Subs: 7

This thread will probably go nowhere.
Half of what you pointed out are actual faction design points to keep flavor for Soviets, just like other factions have their specialties. You do not try to explain why you think they were OP, you just state that they are without backing it up.

A lot of other points revolve around Soviet munitions float: yes, Soviets can float munitions early on. That does not mean they have more overall.
They spend usually about 4x50 on on Conscripts in the mid late game, Ostheer usually spends 3x60 on grens and OKW 3-4x60 on Volks. It's not far off, just the timing is different. This by itself could be an issue, but also here you never try to reason why that was the case.

On top of that, you see ZiS barrages, because its closest soviets have to actual grenades.
Cons don't exactly excel with their molos until vetted, its still a side tech delaying other, actually crucial things and what you see in ZiS barrages and mines, you see with volks and grens constantly tossing their nades.

At the end there is no difference nor advantage here.

You can tryhard and argue pintle MGs on tanks since soviets do not even have that luxury option.
23 Sep 2020, 10:22 AM
#17
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 444

This thread will probably go nowhere.
Half of what you pointed out are actual faction design points to keep flavor for Soviets, just like other factions have their specialties. You do not try to explain why you think they were OP, you just state that they are without backing it up.

A lot of other points revolve around Soviet munitions float: yes, Soviets can float munitions early on. That does not mean they have more overall.
They spend usually about 4x50 on on Conscripts in the mid late game, Ostheer usually spends 3x60 on grens and OKW 3-4x60 on Volks. It's not far off, just the timing is different. This by itself could be an issue, but also here you never try to reason why that was the case.


But I did give short explanations? Some of it is just self evident to anyone who plays the game. I don't need to make calculations to prove that soviets float ammo because it's an obvious fact you can deduce from playing the game. Same with a lot of the other issues.
23 Sep 2020, 10:25 AM
#18
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 444

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 10:17 AMKatitof

On top of that, you see ZiS barrages, because its closest soviets have to actual grenades.
Cons don't exactly excel with their molos until vetted, its still a side tech delaying other, actually crucial things and what you see in ZiS barrages and mines, you see with volks and grens constantly tossing their nades.

At the end there is no difference nor advantage here.

You can tryhard and argue pintle MGs on tanks since soviets do not even have that luxury option.


Volks nades equal soviet flamer. Rifle Grenades are strong but they don't pose a fundamental balance problem. ZIS Guns do because they guarantee you indirect fire with no trade offs.
23 Sep 2020, 10:30 AM
#19
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 444

The game could use a popcap patch in general

MGs and ATG are too easy to fit into builds late game. Like you can have T34s and SUs, a vet t70, infantry core and still fit in double ZIS and dskhs no problem. You can't really do this with UKF with Churchill, FF, bolstered section pop which all cost more than their sov counterparts. USF has the advantage of decrew, but they also have to sink pop into ambo and officers. The only faction that trades popcap for healing

Not to mention the ZIS also doubles as a mortar you can see why this is problematic. You can really just lock down as soviets, similar to how old Ost could with mobile defense meta

OKW only really need one sturm for repairs, obers are costly but are worth the pop after vet 2. I feel like okw only struggle if you rely on volks late game


Agreed, pop cap is broken on many fronts. I could make another thread about USF pop cap abuse.
23 Sep 2020, 10:38 AM
#20
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1401

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 10:15 AMGiaA


1. Because you generally play a green cover negating sniper vs brits. Try that vs soviets. You need to outclass your opponent by at least one level to make it work.

uhh why? tommies can do 90% of what cons can do except snare and oorah in exchange for being able to bully everything except a rifle squad...

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 10:15 AMGiaA

2. Manpower reinforce cost reduction is completely insignificant either way.


soo the manpower cost reduction of 7 man is completely insignificant with both of them being -2 mp

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 10:15 AMGiaA

3. Maxim isn't hot trash. You make it seem like a meme unit. It's not. It's not good but has its uses.


is it a crime for the soviets to have a good machinegun?

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 10:15 AMGiaA

4.I was only responding to your point that it is not a no brainer upgrade. Never said the otehr factions don't have no brainer weapon uprades.


then 7 man being no brainer isnt exactly a soviet strength since literally everyone else gets no brainer upgrades...
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