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Why Soviets are OP

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26 Sep 2020, 10:30 AM
#201
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 08:57 AMEsxile


That's basically from where we come from because it was a disaster. Doctrines should add flavor not fill gaps.

The problem with your topic is that you're offering zero solution. You're just yelling "WATER'S WET" on all your responses.
There is no need for rocket science's degree to understand and acknowledge the T70 is too good. BUT it requires much more than such topic and yelling to find a balanced solution for the Soviet faction as a whole with all the constraints imposed by the game and Relic.


1. Idk if you're aware but I don't take most people in this thread even remotely seriously because they don't play the game or they play the game at a level where balance just doesnt matter. You guys are akin to overweight drunk soccer fans arguing about the formation of their favorite team. Ofc you're all confident as hell while doing so which makes it even more entertaining. The arrogance in these posts berating me is truly mind blowing.

2. The assumption that there needs to be some grand overhaul of the soviet faction before the t70 can be nerfed is apparently made by you but not me. I've literally posted a list of possible changes in this thread. Then again I'm a mediocre player so I really shouldn't be the no1 authority on this. However my takes are anything but yelling the same thing over and over. I just don't create giant walls of texts like a true forum warrior.



26 Sep 2020, 10:36 AM
#202
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 10:25 AMKatitof

Ost didn't had PaK43 or Ele neutered once T4 and panther was buffed.
250 wasn't nerfed when PGs were buffed, in fact it was buffed as well.

Your logic makes no sense and doesn't line with reality of changes made to all 5 factions, who had both, core armies and multiple doctrines and doctrinal units brought up in line without castrating completely already existing meta units, while dominating meta units were adjusted to be just another option to consider, not the only, exclusive option to pick if you want to win a leveled game.

Your personal agenda was proven to be incorrect approach with each and every single patch across almost half a decade now as there was never before in coh2 lifespan a place with balance as good and meta as varied as it is nowadays and lack of dominating doctrines for all the factions(minus clearly batshit insane ost infantry doctrine 5 man grens and overperforming osttruppen but for non doctrinal reasons) as well as win ratios across the board being closest ever is a testament to the changes leading the game into balanced state.

And we are back to normal katitof full of toxic comments and non constructive post resorting in personal attacks instead of arguments.

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 10:25 AMKatitof

You are fully entitled to that personal opinion of yours.
It does not make it a fact tho.

Actually Soviets having a plethora of doctrinal units is a fact not mu personal opinion.
26 Sep 2020, 10:38 AM
#203
avatar of Cardboard Tank

Posts: 965

One thing I never understood about the T-70 or even the AEC is why those are impervious to small arms fire while the Puma isn't. Time of arrival? Well, the AEC arrives earlier than the Puma. Best solution would be to have the same standard for all. Either all "advanced" light vehicles (everything thats not a Halftrack or truck) get damaged by small arms fire or none. Not even askign for every rifle shot to pen but at least MGs or LMG Grens should be able to chase away light vehciles if those are camping them for too long... the same way Allied inf is able to push a Puma away that is camping for 30 seconds.
26 Sep 2020, 10:39 AM
#204
avatar of Selvy289

Posts: 366

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 10:30 AMGiaA

stuff


Idk man, your absolute dismissal to almost everything that has been said and continue to discredit yourself you may find that you will be ignored or people wont take an interest.
26 Sep 2020, 10:44 AM
#205
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 09:22 AMKatitof

Do you have some filter on that erases "non doctrinal" and "stock" words from the posts you read?
Were you asleep for last 4 years, where community modders did everything in their power to make faction NON DEPENDENT ON DOCTRINES?

Unless you want to have 7th con unlocked at T3 instead of T4, T-70 will remain unchanged, because it can't be changed without equally large boost to infantry in that time period.


Realistically Soviets have always relied and will always heavily rely on doctrinal abilities. Now should we work with that fact or just put our heads in the sand and act like it's not there? I also don't accept this axiomatic take on doctrines being "extras". This ideal will never be reached anyways. Why don't we call the soviet reliance on doctrines "faction flavour"?

26 Sep 2020, 10:46 AM
#206
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2056 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 09:07 AMVipper

May suggestion is to greatly reduce Penal's cost...
Although (an older) suggestion:

https://www.coh2.org/topic/61269/redesign-penal-battalions

feel free to PM if you want to further debate the issue.


Imo Relic attempted to portrait the early Soviet army that disorganized during purges that had trouble even fighting vs the Finns.

Penal were mostly not "convicts" of the criminal of the civilian law but ranged from dissidents to soldiered that had retreated.

So I do not really understand why some people are insulted.


Then Reliс screwed up, the conscripts have been wearing uniform since 1943. Also, the game units are a mixture of units from 1941 to 1944. There was no need to spray and the time interval. If Reliс wanted to show disorganization, then it was necessary to limit itself to the units of 1941-1942, even in these intervals there was everyone's favorite Tiger, which was tested in Leningrad.
26 Sep 2020, 10:47 AM
#207
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2



Idk man, your absolute dismissal to almost everything that has been said and continue to discredit yourself you may find that you will be ignored or people wont take an interest.


You actually play the game (like me) so consider yourself acknowledged.
26 Sep 2020, 11:09 AM
#208
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 09:50 AMVipper

If one want to redesign Soviet without commanders one has to actually bring Soviet commander inline with other factions and removed and tone down most doctrinal units.

Currently Soviet have a plethora of doctrinal units and many of them are above the doctrinal units of other factions.


im perfectly fine with this statement... id rather see stuff like guards and shocks put in line as opposed to having the soviets play with a gutted stock design
26 Sep 2020, 11:34 AM
#209
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 11:09 AMgbem


im perfectly fine with this statement... id rather see stuff like guards and shocks put in line as opposed to having the soviets play with a gutted stock design


Glad to see that the majority of this forum can reasoned with unlike some specific users who seem to simply troll. Also glad to see that you agree.

Imo the original Soviet design could be salvaged but the step to move away from it was only partially implemented leaving many of their stock units and doctrinal units in weird place. One could try to full implement a "stock" and majority of units would be tuned some receiving buff others nerfs.
26 Sep 2020, 11:55 AM
#210
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 10:44 AMGiaA


Realistically Soviets have always relied and will always heavily rely on doctrinal abilities. Now should we work with that fact or just put our heads in the sand and act like it's not there? I also don't accept this axiomatic take on doctrines being "extras". This ideal will never be reached anyways. Why don't we call the soviet reliance on doctrines "faction flavour"?



But that's not how Soviets are right now. We have already achieved that "ideal".

Conscript can work without PPSH/SVT/PTRS by going 7man upgrade and actually scale into the late game. Before you will discard them outside of 1 or 2 for snares.
This means Elites are good but optional.

Giving PTRS to Penals had the objective of avoiding the must need of getting a Guard/45mm AT gun.

T34 actually has a job outside of been a ram platform as it has decent AI. If you need to deal with heavier armor, you are not forced to get T85s or heavies as SU85 is not a medium murder machine as before but rather focuses on penetration.


On your last point, the whole reason we don't kept that faction flavour is because people don't like facing those OP flavours which glued the rest of underwhelming units.


What i would try:

-Increase cost of CE by 10/20
-Increase cost of mp pool (initial mp + CE cost) to be equivalent to the other 4 factions.
-Fuse the molotov + AT nade in a single upgrade. Just keep the cost of the AT nade.
-Make medics cost 200.

-Penals, decrease build time. PTRS + Satchel requires unlocking AT/Molli package.

-Maxims, give the suppression at vet 0 with increased muni cost. Vet 1 decreases muni cost to current. If to underwhelming, vet 0 is given the current cost and vet 1 decreases the time for activation.
-Zis, increase cost of barrage or controversial, swap it with Tracking.
-Tracking changes (includes Su85). No longer provides a vision boost nor infantry on minimap, rather it gives a vehicle detection (minimap) plus the British tracking (keep vision of units tagged) for a certain period of time. Removes the silly combo of tracking + focused vision.

-Reduce cost of T3. This cost deduction is shifted towards T4.
-Nerf T70 to the equivalent of the P2.
-Monitor the M5. I would like every AA unit to be as good as the Quad. Though it could be tweak down if it can't be possible.
-Apply Mirage's changes to the Su76.

-Ram: i think a plausible way to tweak, at least for the T76 variation (so maybe keeping it the same in the T85), is to remove engine overdrive and make the ability cancel the moment it takes +80 dmg from any source. Or make it a skillshot (it can no longer maneuver) as it just goes forward, it doesn't cancel on dmg but any hit reduces it's speed.
Nevertheless, remove the silly 5/3/2 % criticals. At least make them based on enemy vehicle HP threshold. So if it pens it's always engine damage and the other criticals only apply at say 20% HP.
-Su85 reduce vet 2 pen increase. Vet 0 does it job more than well and vet 2 is just overkill.
-Fix Creeping barrage bug

As far as doctrinal things goes, i would only adjust the ISU152 rear armor and remove the IL2 bombing strike from those commander (same applies to Ele doctrine). For everything else is a case by case thing.
26 Sep 2020, 12:30 PM
#211
avatar of thekingsown10

Posts: 232

The problem with soviets is that their units in general are good at EVERYTHING all at once with no real weakness. A text book example of this is the SU 152 for example amazing AT and Ai and range along with amazing armour. Compare that to the Elephant and its ONLY good at AT that's it.
26 Sep 2020, 12:51 PM
#212
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2



But that's not how Soviets are right now. We have already achieved that "ideal".

Conscript can work without PPSH/SVT/PTRS by going 7man upgrade and actually scale into the late game. Before you will discard them outside of 1 or 2 for snares.
This means Elites are good but optional.

Giving PTRS to Penals had the objective of avoiding the must need of getting a Guard/45mm AT gun.

T34 actually has a job outside of been a ram platform as it has decent AI. If you need to deal with heavier armor, you are not forced to get T85s or heavies as SU85 is not a medium murder machine as before but rather focuses on penetration.


On your last point, the whole reason we don't kept that faction flavour is because people don't like facing those OP flavours which glued the rest of underwhelming units.


What i would try:

-Increase cost of CE by 10/20
-Increase cost of mp pool (initial mp + CE cost) to be equivalent to the other 4 factions.
-Fuse the molotov + AT nade in a single upgrade. Just keep the cost of the AT nade.
-Make medics cost 200.

-Penals, decrease build time. PTRS + Satchel requires unlocking AT/Molli package.

-Maxims, give the suppression at vet 0 with increased muni cost. Vet 1 decreases muni cost to current. If to underwhelming, vet 0 is given the current cost and vet 1 decreases the time for activation.
-Zis, increase cost of barrage or controversial, swap it with Tracking.
-Tracking changes (includes Su85). No longer provides a vision boost nor infantry on minimap, rather it gives a vehicle detection (minimap) plus the British tracking (keep vision of units tagged) for a certain period of time. Removes the silly combo of tracking + focused vision.

-Reduce cost of T3. This cost deduction is shifted towards T4.
-Nerf T70 to the equivalent of the P2.
-Monitor the M5. I would like every AA unit to be as good as the Quad. Though it could be tweak down if it can't be possible.
-Apply Mirage's changes to the Su76.

-Ram: i think a plausible way to tweak, at least for the T76 variation (so maybe keeping it the same in the T85), is to remove engine overdrive and make the ability cancel the moment it takes +80 dmg from any source. Or make it a skillshot (it can no longer maneuver) as it just goes forward, it doesn't cancel on dmg but any hit reduces it's speed.
Nevertheless, remove the silly 5/3/2 % criticals. At least make them based on enemy vehicle HP threshold. So if it pens it's always engine damage and the other criticals only apply at say 20% HP.
-Su85 reduce vet 2 pen increase. Vet 0 does it job more than well and vet 2 is just overkill.
-Fix Creeping barrage bug

As far as doctrinal things goes, i would only adjust the ISU152 rear armor and remove the IL2 bombing strike from those commander (same applies to Ele doctrine). For everything else is a case by case thing.


I disagee. The Guards/Shocks/Weapon Upgrade/None and IS2/85/KV1/KV2/ISU/None choices are still way more game changing than the other factions doctrine choices.

Interesting changes.
26 Sep 2020, 13:27 PM
#213
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 12:51 PMGiaA


I disagee. The Guards/Shocks/Weapon Upgrade/None and IS2/85/KV1/KV2/ISU/None choices are still way more game changing than the other factions doctrine choices.

Interesting changes.


I'm not saying it's not game changing but it's not that you MUST get X in order to win a game. Specially not one over the other.
26 Sep 2020, 13:38 PM
#214
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 962 | Subs: 1


-Penals, decrease build time. PTRS + Satchel requires unlocking AT/Molli package.

Honestly penals in general are very strong but quite expensive early on. I would rather see them more affordable early on, but less powerfull shifting their AI via some sort of upgrade or maybe as a passive T3 unlock. I think, macking them faster to get, might make them a bit too strong for teamgames.


-Zis, increase cost of barrage or controversial, swap it with Tracking.

I belive smoke barrage would be better, I think soviets in general can benifit from having more smoke options, considering stock mortar is meh and only other source of smoke are shocks, which have shared cooldown on nades.


-Monitor the M5. I would like every AA unit to be as good as the Quad. Though it could be tweak down if it can't be possible.

Tbh its pefromance against planes is badshit broken. If anything it should be toned down to Centaur lvl, because it just deny all air-based call-in the moment they are in its range, making them completly useless.


-Ram: i think a plausible way to tweak, at least for the T76 variation (so maybe keeping it the same in the T85), is to remove engine overdrive and make the ability cancel the moment it takes +80 dmg from any source. Or make it a skillshot (it can no longer maneuver) as it just goes forward, it doesn't cancel on dmg but any hit reduces it's speed.

Maybe some sort of a speed boost for quick flanking\body blocking which gives temp slow after usage.
26 Sep 2020, 14:00 PM
#215
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2


Honestly penals in general are very strong but quite expensive early on. I would rather see them more affordable early on, but less powerfull shifting their AI via some sort of upgrade or maybe as a passive T3 unlock. I think, macking them faster to get, might make them a bit too strong for teamgames.


I belive smoke barrage would be better, I think soviets in general can benifit from having more smoke options, considering stock mortar is meh and only other source of smoke are shocks, which have shared cooldown on nades.


Tbh its pefromance against planes is badshit broken. If anything it should be toned down to Centaur lvl, because it just deny all air-based call-in the moment they are in its range, making them completly useless.


Maybe some sort of a speed boost for quick flanking\body blocking which gives temp slow after usage.


The changes are thought in combination not isolation.
The increased cost in CE + upgrade offsets slightly the slightly faster build time which is there to not be as behind in map control. The changes is in the realm of a couple of seconds, which will matter more in 1v1 than teamgames.

I don't believe in removing features when possible. If the abiliy is good, put a price accordingly.

Planes are batshit broken, not the AA. Specially in terms of "effort" required to deploy vs countering them.
If you want to use planes, take down AA first. Most if not all single pass planes achieve their objective before they can be taken down. So AA is mostly used to counter loitering ones.
26 Sep 2020, 14:24 PM
#216
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1


....
Planes are batshit broken, not the AA...

GachiGasm is correct Qaud is OP in its AA performance and far superior than even more expensive AA assets.

It can bring down planes before the have the chance to fire once or reveal any section of the map.

If one bring all AA weapons to Quads performance might as well remove most planes abilities from the game because they will be a waste of munitions and wasted commander slot.
26 Sep 2020, 14:26 PM
#217
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 09:50 AMVipper

If one want to redesign Soviet without commanders one has to actually bring Soviet commander inline with other factions and removed and tone down most doctrinal units.

Currently Soviet have a plethora of doctrinal units and many of them are above the doctrinal units of other factions.

Yes that's fine. The name of the game is balance and you cant have balance while you have to have certain units from certain commanders to make the faction work. Especially when you can only load 3 and pick one of those 3. If a faction REQUIRES a doctrinal unit to function it shouldn't be doctrinal. The soviet are the least reliant on commanders they have ever been so there is hope for this direction of balance, toning down the T70 in favor of making 7 man hit sooner (and thus improving soviet mid infantry game of all sorts) might be all it takes.

As for commanders, once the core is strong they can be rebalanced- problem combinations not withstanding like recon+bomb not withstanding of course
26 Sep 2020, 14:44 PM
#218
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Sep 2020, 14:24 PMVipper

GachiGasm is correct Qaud is OP in its AA performance and far superior than even more expensive AA assets.

It can bring down planes before the have the chance to fire once or reveal any section of the map.

If one bring all AA weapons to Quads performance might as well remove most planes abilities from the game because they will be a waste of munitions and wasted commander slot.


Kill the AA units first and then use the offmap. Single pass planes most certainty delivers their payload and recon planes provide enough vision on top of been bugged after death.

It's called counterplay.

PD: i wouldn't mind if the range of mobile AA units is reduced.
26 Sep 2020, 15:14 PM
#219
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13148 | Subs: 1



Kill the AA units first and then use the offmap.

Quad does not need to be in the frontline to shoot down planes, so it easier said than done.


Single pass planes most certainty delivers their payload and recon planes provide enough vision on top of been bugged after death.

Single pass planes can be shot down without delivering their payload.


It's called counterplay.

Having a single quad that can completely shut down all loiter abilities with cost of 200+ MU is not counter play it is simply bad design.

If AA had to manual start firing at planes, if planes received "suppression" similar to infatry when under AA fire reducing their effectiveness that would more of counter play.


PD: i wouldn't mind if the range of mobile AA units is reduced.

That might be a start but it is simply not enough since the AA capabilities of units are variate greatly. From the inconstent performance of the USF AAHT to the OP performance of the Quad.


The idea of bringing all AA assets to quad level is bad. If loiter planes are too strong they should be adjusted and not have the AA weapon buffed that affects all planes and not just loiters.

An overhaul is needed.
26 Sep 2020, 16:21 PM
#220
avatar of Kyle

Posts: 322

In 2vs2, Soviet player that mixing T34/76 + ISU-152 + IL2 bomb drop are the worst:

- T34/76mm come in cheap at 90 fuel, great anti-infantry
- ISU-152 that great at both Anti-tank and anti-infantry ( more like wiping axis infantry )

The only thing can counter ISU-152 is Elefant and top tier 2vs2 Soviet will use T34/76mm ramming + IL2 bomb drop on Elefant = best trade ever.

If you guys thinking about nerfing something, please remove IL2 bomb drop on both Soviet commander ( And do the same for Stuka bomb drop from Elefant commander )

OR please disaable ramming if the T34 got shot at by AT or faust.

Thank you
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