But that's not how Soviets are right now. We have already achieved that "ideal".
Conscript can work without PPSH/SVT/PTRS by going 7man upgrade and actually scale into the late game. Before you will discard them outside of 1 or 2 for snares.
This means Elites are good but optional.
Giving PTRS to Penals had the objective of avoiding the must need of getting a Guard/45mm AT gun.
T34 actually has a job outside of been a ram platform as it has decent AI. If you need to deal with heavier armor, you are not forced to get T85s or heavies as SU85 is not a medium murder machine as before but rather focuses on penetration.
On your last point, the whole reason we don't kept that faction flavour is because people don't like facing those OP flavours which glued the rest of underwhelming units.
What i would try:
-Increase cost of CE by 10/20
-Increase cost of mp pool (initial mp + CE cost) to be equivalent to the other 4 factions.
-Fuse the molotov + AT nade in a single upgrade. Just keep the cost of the AT nade.
-Make medics cost 200.
-Penals, decrease build time. PTRS + Satchel requires unlocking AT/Molli package.
-Maxims, give the suppression at vet 0 with increased muni cost. Vet 1 decreases muni cost to current. If to underwhelming, vet 0 is given the current cost and vet 1 decreases the time for activation.
-Zis, increase cost of barrage or controversial, swap it with Tracking.
-Tracking changes (includes Su85). No longer provides a vision boost nor infantry on minimap, rather it gives a vehicle detection (minimap) plus the British tracking (keep vision of units tagged) for a certain period of time. Removes the silly combo of tracking + focused vision.
-Reduce cost of T3. This cost deduction is shifted towards T4.
-Nerf T70 to the equivalent of the P2.
-Monitor the M5. I would like every AA unit to be as good as the Quad. Though it could be tweak down if it can't be possible.
-Apply Mirage's changes to the Su76.
-Ram: i think a plausible way to tweak, at least for the T76 variation (so maybe keeping it the same in the T85), is to remove engine overdrive and make the ability cancel the moment it takes +80 dmg from any source. Or make it a skillshot (it can no longer maneuver) as it just goes forward, it doesn't cancel on dmg but any hit reduces it's speed.
Nevertheless, remove the silly 5/3/2 % criticals. At least make them based on enemy vehicle HP threshold. So if it pens it's always engine damage and the other criticals only apply at say 20% HP.
-Su85 reduce vet 2 pen increase. Vet 0 does it job more than well and vet 2 is just overkill.
-Fix Creeping barrage bug
As far as doctrinal things goes, i would only adjust the ISU152 rear armor and remove the IL2 bombing strike from those commander (same applies to Ele doctrine). For everything else is a case by case thing.
I disagee. The Guards/Shocks/Weapon Upgrade/None and IS2/85/KV1/KV2/ISU/None choices are still way more game changing than the other factions doctrine choices.
Idk man, your absolute dismissal to almost everything that has been said and continue to discredit yourself you may find that you will be ignored or people wont take an interest.
You actually play the game (like me) so consider yourself acknowledged.
Do you have some filter on that erases "non doctrinal" and "stock" words from the posts you read?
Were you asleep for last 4 years, where community modders did everything in their power to make faction NON DEPENDENT ON DOCTRINES?
Unless you want to have 7th con unlocked at T3 instead of T4, T-70 will remain unchanged, because it can't be changed without equally large boost to infantry in that time period.
Realistically Soviets have always relied and will always heavily rely on doctrinal abilities. Now should we work with that fact or just put our heads in the sand and act like it's not there? I also don't accept this axiomatic take on doctrines being "extras". This ideal will never be reached anyways. Why don't we call the soviet reliance on doctrines "faction flavour"?
That's basically from where we come from because it was a disaster. Doctrines should add flavor not fill gaps.
The problem with your topic is that you're offering zero solution. You're just yelling "WATER'S WET" on all your responses.
There is no need for rocket science's degree to understand and acknowledge the T70 is too good. BUT it requires much more than such topic and yelling to find a balanced solution for the Soviet faction as a whole with all the constraints imposed by the game and Relic.
1. Idk if you're aware but I don't take most people in this thread even remotely seriously because they don't play the game or they play the game at a level where balance just doesnt matter. You guys are akin to overweight drunk soccer fans arguing about the formation of their favorite team. Ofc you're all confident as hell while doing so which makes it even more entertaining. The arrogance in these posts berating me is truly mind blowing.
2. The assumption that there needs to be some grand overhaul of the soviet faction before the t70 can be nerfed is apparently made by you but not me. I've literally posted a list of possible changes in this thread. Then again I'm a mediocre player so I really shouldn't be the no1 authority on this. However my takes are anything but yelling the same thing over and over. I just don't create giant walls of texts like a true forum warrior.
Because, for the 100000th time in CoH2 lifespan, non doctrinal infantry mid game does not exist for soviets and without this crutch, upgraded inf roflstomps them now only in mid game, previously in end game as well, because nothing except maxims was capable of holding its on in mid and late game in regards to stock infantry.
The whole "T70 carries soviets" meme only applies to Osttruppen anyways. Doctrine abilities exist. They are part of the game. You can't balance around a doctrineless game.
It's mind boggling to me how Soviets have gotten a free pass to have blatantly OP units/abilities over the years while all other factions have swung wildly between UP and OP.
This is basically what I was getting at. T70 has been op for the entire lifespan of coh2 and everyone just accepts it.
1. i checked some of my replays (mixed automatch and tourney) and the flamer timing was anything between 2:40 and 4:05, which doesnt say alot about the usual game obviously but you can get the flamer significantly faster than 3:30 when you rush munitions (which i usually do as soviets)
2. what i meant was that soviets reach their full t0 army with either 4cons+ce or 3cons+2ce earlier than any other army completes their t0/t1 army, combined with a flamer push soviets should get good portion of the map and harras their opponents income. excluding very aggresive early game play like 221/ostruppen
3. nothing to add, youre basically right. of course soviets plays from behind against ostruppen but i wouldnt set that sitiation as their normal early game situation, even tho ostruppen is played a ton
The 4 con timing push is underrated even against osttruppen. There's a short window during OH T2 tech and PG build time where you're actually ahead. Ofc if you push and all your cons are damaged PG is gonna clean up the field but it's a small powerspike nonetheless.
Soviets Brits are OP
Other than 6 man support weapons soviets are a generally rounded faction with strong late game that relies on superior numbers or tank destroyers/kv-2.
I mean I could have made a thread about brits being op but that would just be preaching to the choir. I loathe brits as much as the next person. You actually think Soviets rely on tank destroyers? I mean get that you're not much of an ATGun guy but I feel like Su76 or Su85 play much less of a role than double zis in 1v1.
Then the faction is not OP (though u mention the intent of the title is to bring up discussion) but rather poorly designed.
SU vs OKW match up been skewed (in your opinion) would mostly be attributed to OKW problems rather than needing SU changes (IMO)
SU vs OH match up atm, i don't think there's a huge uphill battle till we talking about games making it pass the 25/30 min mark and Soviets manage to get on equal footing and have everything upgraded without losing vet on their units. At that point i don't think it's imba but rather than Soviets have an easier execution.
What i found amusing is that you are suggesting nerfs towards Soviets at the key moments they are at their weakest furthering increasing the problem.
I'm sure you realise the problem in logic behind this.
Well see it this way, there's a universal consensus that osttruppen and 5men are too strong. However if you fix these you gotta adress some of the Soviet Late game issues too. The entire reason I made this thread (apart from being bored) was that the soviet issues are rarely talked about because they get overshadowed by the early mid wehrmach powerspike.
thanks man, i will start my research into the build order. but i really have to ask: i having problems finding knowledge about different commanders in order to know when to use them? im just choosing randomly most of the time, is there any tips you can give me about the 3 commander that i chose in that match? those 3 i intend to master first , thanks for the help
There's too many variables to make up general rules. There's commanders that completely change the game like the assault grenadier one you picked. I wouldn't recommend it for a beginner because Assault Grenadiers are built instead of grenadiers most of the time and are quite a cheesy unit. It's better to train with regular grenadiers. But in the end of the day you just need to have fun and experiment with the different commanders.
this is mostly outdated but should give you a decent orientation