So if Ostheer doesn't get free tech, does it mean USF doesn't get free officer as well?
If one want to a comparison between the Ostheer and USF one could either consider things that unlocked by BP as "free" and Officer also as "Free" or consider that both things as having a cost.
In any case and imo the immediate impact of a unit with equipped with Thompson/bar or Thompson/no tech bazooka is bigger than the unlock of BP1, since in most cases the benefits of BP1 come over time.
But a USF/Ostheer tech comparison is more complicated since USF are more flexible while Ostheer tech is more rigid.
Now if one wanted to compare UKF tech with Ostheer tech both being more linear, I would point out that Ostheer tech is more complicated since it requires both a tech unlock and a building while that the Hammer/Anvil is more cost efficient than BP3. At a cost of 200/50 the benefit that come with Hammer/Anvil are probably worth it even if one does not built a Comet or Churchill.
Finally from my 2vs2 games I have seen more times UKF players successfully rushing to unlock Hammer/Anvil than Ostheer player rushing a T4.
if bf 1 was divided in 2 tech both 20 fu wich said granede up. and lmg up. would it change something ?
In that case Ostheer would become more flexible.
For instance Spamming grenadiers would not require going a G43 doctrine or having the option for early grenades would make assault grenadiers stronger.
The same goes for OKW that if they had the option to unlock the P.Faust as a side tech they would be able to deal with M3A1, WC and WC51 easier.
Which is exactly what the guides on this page says..
Dear Johnsmith this is your fifth post in this thread and none of them have anything to do with Ostheer tech.
At this point I have to assume that you are simply flaming/trolling and will not read anything else you post in this thread. I have to point out that you are no longer welcomed in this thread.
Have nice day.
So, you hereby agree that this whole thread is not about the subject itself, it is about you disagreeing with him somewhere down the line, and therefore you creating a whole new thread to have the community agree with you in order to set him right? Jeez... Even the community disagrees with you here, yet you keep on pointing at katitof.
Well, that answers my question that I asked you on the first page of the thread why you don't just use the data available in the guides.
Dear Johnsmith you are off topic. Pls stop trying to derail this thread.
You are welcomed as long as you stay on topic, feel free to add you opinion on anything even remotely related to Ostheer teching.
OK, i see what u mean. Both sides have ther advantages and disadvantages, ostheer pay a large sum, but get everything in one go and is cheaper in the long run, where as other factions pay lower price for specific upgrades that can come faster but cost more in the long run if they want to fully tech and upgrade. Sounds pretty baalcned to me
soooo whats the problem?
The problem, imo, is that katitof is in a quest to prove me wrong, no matter what, ending up in derailing other threads.
When it comes to Ostheer teching I would say that imo the main problem is that T4 is not worth the investment in most cases.
It gives access to very specialized and very expensive units which usually are not worth the investment.
Thing would be allot better if Ostheer had access in general purpose main battle tank in T4 or gained other advantage for researching T4 or access to a cost efficient unit in T4 allowing them to avoid building the T3.
I'm not sure about the use of this topic but i feel that the teching from whermath is actually good right now.
Imo it is not. That is part of the reason why most people do not make T4 (at least in small mods) and go for Tiger.
It is a TECH COST.
Not a SIDE COST.
You pay extra for nothing and that cost is balanced to allow you med armor at almost the same time as any other faction who Needs to pay extra for stuff that directly delays tech.
It does NOT serve the function of strategical planning next resource expense, but merely a timing and tech pace function.
Once more PLS, do not press the quote button if what you are going to say is irrelevant to what you are quoting.
I never claimed that bundle grenades are a "side cost", on the contrary I clearly said BP1 is tech and has a cost.
Let my explain also something else, BP1 does not unlock medium armor so I would suggest that you leave medium armor out of it.
If in your opinion, Ostheer have an actual advantage because of their tech tree pls explain and elaborate instead of talking semantics about "Tech Costs" and "Side Costs".
That was the whole point you were so stubbornly trying to argue against. Or you still want to pretend that battlephases serve the exact same role as zooks, nades, aec/bofors or squad bolster upgrades for other factions and make your tech slower with the option to skip them for faster tech?
I am not able to tell the reason, but its impossible for you to comprehend the idea of what a side cost is and how it relates to tech path and timing.
The only one being stubborn here is you, that to quote me and post with purpose of simply proving me wrong.
Finally pls stop putting words in mouth.
(contrary to what you write I never pretended that battlephases serve the exact same role as zooks,...)
I have not asked you whether it is possible (ie. whether the game allows it) to have a bundle grenade unit before BP1 but how does one even have such a unit before BP1. This question must be interpreted as a question regarding the factual occurence in games actually played, not theory crafting from game mechanisms. In essence, this question basically stands as: how does anyone actually have these units before BP1 so that part of the thread can have any value.
This does not apply only to bundle grenades but to all grenades and assault grenadiers do not have access to their grenades before BP1. And just to clarify I am not claiming that they should have access to grenades from the start.
On the other hand the fact ostheer grenades require BP1 does have an affect on the gameplay.
If you are asking how can one have unit with grenades be available before BP1 I am telling via doctrines.
If you are asking me if it is a common occurrence to get the units with grenades before BP1, my answer it is almost in every case for assault grenadiers, less common for ST, PG.
If you are asking if it has happen to me, I would say, yes I had a couple 2vs2 game where I called ST before PB1.
If you are asking me if it is balance issue I would say not an important one.
Yes, that your thread has no relevance to anything and is completely redundant and pointless
Also, if you like extensive formalism, so be it.
If that is how you feel about it I would advice you not to read it.
Once more is there an actual point you want to make about Ostheer teching or are you simply arguing "pointlessly" in a "pointless" thread?
Time delay with CPs doesnt work with stock units which dont come from doctrines, neither does it work with stock abilites, these would be delayed with veterancy requirements.
Im not saying Ost has an advantage to other factions in terms of teching, and i strongly agree that the linear progression with structure building is a disadvantage for Ost.
I personally would welcome some changes such as reduced build time, or reduced tech time. So i do agree with you on that, but that is a seperate problem in itself, and the problems you note are merely symptoms of that and not the core issue.
Well I did note them as problems but I simply responded to certain claims that where creating the impression that Ostheer tech offered some sort of advantages over other factions.
I am glad that we agree that it does not.
That is a flawed way of looking at WM ability requirements. You view teching as a "bundle" consisting of tech and abilities, but the unlock merely serves as a time constraint. Its similiar to shifting OKW nade requirements around deployed truck/truck on field without changing the cost of teching.
It is common practice in many RTS to add a time delay by locking it behind other tech, not to combine the cost, but to provide a free ability at a later time. Starcraft also utilizes this principle a lot, and so do many other games.
Its not inaccurate or misleading because the abilites dont influence the tech cost, and only require the techup in order to delay its availability.
You can look things your way if you want. If in your opinion Ostheer get "free" things, they are not the only one, UKF, USF and OKW get free things also.
Time-delay is in game in the form of CPs.
In addition if in you opinion Ostheer tech work as time restriction one could consider "side tech" that bypasses that restriction as an extra cost for the choice of when and if one will unlock a tech.
Bottom line here is that Ostheer hardly have any advantage because of their tech tree.
They have sort of linear tech rigid progression in some way similar to UKF but they also have to build their buildings.
Would you be so kind and provide me with some replays in which you have these things before BP1?
Why? would a replay change the fact the bundle grenades require BP1?
I did not claim this is balance issue in any way. I simply point out the bundle grenades require BP1 which is a fact.
Also answered your question on how Ostheer can have a unit with access to bundle grenades without BP1, which is with the doctrinal access to Stormtroopers or PG. which is again not balance issue.
Do you have a point you want to make?