Profile of Vipper

It an "over sight" from the people who coded it and since the behavior in not as expected (and as it is for the majority of vehicles) it qualifies as a "bug".

This is not a balance issue.

If in your opinion the upgrade should not be available to other factions for balance issues, I guess you can start a thread about it.

In one of the recent games I captured an abandoned Cromwell with Ostheer.

The commander upgrade button was missing and could not upgrade it with a commander.

I mean Pathfinders are definitly support units, thus 1 CP would be nice. I guess the reasoning was that the balance team wanted to give a second mainline starter option to USF. Sadly Cav Rifles couldn't be 0 CP, cause of reasons of course. USF's other mainline is not cost effective with the current mappool.

Pathfinder are not support units since in their current implementation they substitute mainline infatry and no there where not meant to be "second mainline infatry". (units like ostruppen and PFuss are meant to act as mainline infatry)

Cav riflemen could not be move to CP 0 because the WC51/Cave riflemen combo provides too much wipe out potential too early.

But how are JLI support units? Thanks to their ambush ability and RA they for sure feel like elite infantry. The JLI werh variant for example, is 2 CP and it works. Could you explain to me why the 2CP JLI did not work for OKW?

OKW JLI and Ostheer C. JLI are completely different units. (the otheer version used to be CP3).

Jli received a number of buffs and changes.

They used to available to scavenger only a doctrine that is simply poor and they where not very cost efficient at 300 manpower.

The first time they where changed they become available to Overwatch (that also received the Lefh) and received a number of buffs. At that point the where broken since OKW could instantly produce them by using infiltration spawn and could apply lots of pressure.

Then the received a number of nerf including:
Jaeger Light Infantry

Cost increased from 250 manpower to 280
Deployment cooldown increased to 100 seconds.
G43 upgrade cost increased from 45 to 60

Infiltration Spawn Removed

Veterancy 5 -20% received accuracy modifier removed.


Point here is not if one should characterize this units "mainline" or "elite" the point is that critical kill mechanism should not be available to units that make the core of an army.

As JLI are part of overwatch commander, the total strength of the commander is decided by the abilities and units that are unlocked once it is chosen. The combat performance vs other units decide how the opponent will respond. Once again, picking a short range focused squad is overall win for OKW as most maps are long range focused along with LMG Obers arriving later to completely negate any push as JLI also have vision and other utility.

Why is this obvious? Why should a more expensive and later arriving unit with a LONG RANGE focus lose? Airborne Guards are an AI focused ELITE unit with no utility outside of combat, why should this unit lose to a cheaper scout unit? Which unit should win long range against JLI behind light cover?

Long range cover to cover fight is the optimum setting for JLI performance, using as argument is as nearly as helpful as conducting a test Pioneer vs Infantry sections at point blank. It does not very helpful.

So what am I wrong about?

I have quoted what you are wrong about but let me quote you again.

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4. It is only 1 CP it is not that much later. CP1 vs CP2 is similar time,

When it comes to call in infatry the difference between CP0, CP1 and CP2 has a massive impact.

Pathfinder become an issue because when they where move to CP 0 and they where able to become the USF mainline infatry.

Unit performance is tied to unit timing, and as I have said several times JLI arrive to early for a unit that can fight mainlines and scale to fight elites. I think I was unclear in my wording when responding to your comment about Pathfinder timing. What I meant to say is it takes about 2.5 mins to 3.5 mins to reach CP1. That means JLI do not arrive much later than Paths, with a dedicated build it is easy to spam JLI. CP2 usually arrives late 5 to early 7 min window(same time gap), so JLI have plenty of time to start vetting before they have to compete with Allied elites.

JLI and especially JLI with scoped G43 are significantly later than Pathfinder and in most games they are used in smaller numbers, especially since JLI have a long cool down.

Yes it was broken when shocks arrived that early, but CP cost wasn't the only issue. If I remember correctly at that time Shocks could still throw smoke and HE with separate cooldowns and Guard LMG had Gren LMG performance.

If there where such issue they also existed at CP2.
What made them broken was the CP 1 difference I think we can establish that.

Instead of nerfing JLI so they would be less spammable, a significantly longer cooldown was given. So performance was known to be an issue but it was never meaningfully address.

Pathfinder are more spam-able than JLI.

JLI where more spam-able and they where nerfed to be less spam-able by removing the infiltration spawn and by having longer cooldown (I did not find a documentation on changing CD although I do remember it to be sorter).

JLI/Pathfinder do not simply need a nerf they need a redesign as support unit.

I am not sure what you arguing with me about I already have said that these unit are badly designed and have made suggestion on how to fix them.

My lack of response was due to us agreeing that they should not be spammable not that I agreed with any of the points that you made.
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I have not claimed that you agreed with my points.

I do not know what you are trying to prove with this test you are making or how it is related to overwatch commander.

I rather obvious that if one is facing JLI one should avoid a static fight at long range behind cover with most unit.

4. It is only 1 CP it is not that much later. CP1 vs CP2 is similar time,...

You are dead wrong about this.

This was clearly proven when Relic in their infinite wisdom moved Shock troops and Guards to CP1 and the Soviet become completely broken.

The same actually applied to both JLI and Pathfinder since the started becoming an issue when their CP was requirement where reduced (JLI from 2 to 1) (Pathfinder from 1 to 0)