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Why Soviets are OP

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15 Nov 2020, 12:58 PM
#501
avatar of gbem

Posts: 1979

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Nov 2020, 12:56 PMVipper

Still irrelevant to captured weapons.


do you know how asymmetric balancing works?
15 Nov 2020, 13:29 PM
#502
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13090 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Nov 2020, 12:58 PMgbem


do you know how asymmetric balancing works?

Yes I do.
15 Nov 2020, 13:53 PM
#503
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

He knows, he simply does not accept that factions should be different in a noticeable way.
15 Nov 2020, 15:14 PM
#504
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Nov 2020, 13:53 PMKatitof
He knows, he simply does not accept that factions should be different in a noticeable way.


Different doesn't mean, that they should get better versions than the origianl fractions.

They have 6men + merge, in 3vs3+ that mean endless Vet3 units. That isn't fair and if you call that asymetric balancing, than please visit the psychologists.

E.g. Osttruppen are balanced, the have quicker refesh, but for that they are easier to hit.
15 Nov 2020, 15:19 PM
#505
avatar of GachiGasm

Posts: 949 | Subs: 1

Btw is M1 provides full crew if its capured, or just 4 models? Cant remember.
15 Nov 2020, 15:25 PM
#506
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Different doesn't mean, that they should get better versions than the origianl fractions.

They have 6men + merge, in 3vs3+ that mean endless Vet3 units. That isn't fair and if you call that asymetric balancing, than please visit the psychologists.

E.g. Osttruppen are balanced, the have quicker refesh, but for that they are easier to hit.

Infantry durability is soviets gimmick. It was like that for 7 years, for 7 years it wasn't a problem and it isn't going to change - ever.
The sole fact that people complain about it now is how perfectly balanced game is to the point, where you are creating problems instead of dealing with actual ones, this is testament to balance teams good job over the years.

I highly advise you to compare model size and weapon dps for cons, grens, rifles and tommies.
You'll find something really surprising.

Out of the gate weapon teams have crap crew weapons, recrewed ones take over rec acc and base weapon of squad that picked them up.

If it'll be too much for you, I'll just spell it out for you later on.
15 Nov 2020, 16:08 PM
#507
avatar of Widerstreit

Posts: 1392

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Nov 2020, 15:25 PMKatitof

...


So 6men HMG42 Shock-troops are ok? Braindead.
15 Nov 2020, 16:33 PM
#508
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



So 6men HMG42 Shock-troops are ok? Braindead.

Yeah, they are, if you are willing to have a HMG hog that much reinforcement cost and pop.
In case you are too young to remember, there was a time period, where we MEMEd with shock manned ZiS3 fending of flanking grens and it was still fine.
Pip
15 Nov 2020, 19:03 PM
#509
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Nov 2020, 11:37 AMKatitof

Almost as if germans haven't provided expert level elite training on ordnance that wasn't native to them, while squad size for soviets doesn't magically change depending on what squad operates, US forces after years of trial and error finally discovered that german vehicles also have doors and hatches they can use the same way they can for their own vehicles.


That's not really much of an argument, every faction has precisely the same veterancy for stolen units, they all apparently provide the same training for captured equipment as their own.

OKW being able to vet to five with captured gear would be exactly the same sort of faction flavouring as USF being able to decrew captured vehicles, or Soviet being able to crew team weapons up to six men (And subsequently merge with them). The only real reason they aren't like this is because it would mean Lelic would need to put in extra work to decide what every single non-OKW unit in the game would have for their vet 4 and 5.

Remember that they don't even get Fiveman Vet on captured Ostheer vehicles/equipment, it's not some "thematic training issue".

Also: An MG crewed with Shock Troops takes the same population space as one crewed with Conscripts. non-soviet MGs do cost two more pop when crewed by any soviet unit though, simply as they have two extra models over what they're "meant" to have. I presume this is all you mean.
15 Nov 2020, 20:41 PM
#510
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2

The discussion around adjusting the infantry lethality of the T-70 is problematic. The role of that unit is to be a dedicated anti-infantry platform and it should be good at filling that role. Is an A/T gun and snare not sufficient to counter this unit?
15 Nov 2020, 20:44 PM
#511
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Nov 2020, 19:03 PMPip
The only real reason they aren't like this is because it would mean Lelic would need to put in extra work to decide what every single non-OKW unit in the game would have for their vet 4 and 5.

Remember that they don't even get Fiveman Vet on captured Ostheer vehicles/equipment, it's not some "thematic training issue".

Also: An MG crewed with Shock Troops takes the same population space as one crewed with Conscripts. non-soviet MGs do cost two more pop when crewed by any soviet unit though, simply as they have two extra models over what they're "meant" to have. I presume this is all you mean.


1- Yep. Also even if they are the same unit, they are different entities with their own profiles. With years some units had been made to be similar and even the PV which basically have the same weapons, have different vet (Combat bliz =/= Blitzkrieg and vet 3)

2- Popcap system has been reworked through out the years. Before, each member of the squad used to have a fraction value of the total cost of the squad.
Nowadays it's squad popcap cost + 1 for each member.


Recrewing with elite squad support weapons end up been a bad idea, due to the cost to reinforce.
Pip
15 Nov 2020, 21:57 PM
#512
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580



1- Yep. Also even if they are the same unit, they are different entities with their own profiles. With years some units had been made to be similar and even the PV which basically have the same weapons, have different vet (Combat bliz =/= Blitzkrieg and vet 3)

2- Popcap system has been reworked through out the years. Before, each member of the squad used to have a fraction value of the total cost of the squad.
Nowadays it's squad popcap cost + 1 for each member.


Recrewing with elite squad support weapons end up been a bad idea, due to the cost to reinforce.


Shock-reinforced weapons teams are INCREDIBLY survivable, however. I think it's situational.

Any particular reason Pop was changed to be like that? Unrelated, but I've similarly heard Armour was calculated differently back in the day, but I don't know exactly what was different. Lotta changes that are poorly documented.
15 Nov 2020, 22:56 PM
#513
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Nov 2020, 21:57 PMPip


Shock-reinforced weapons teams are INCREDIBLY survivable, however. I think it's situational.

Any particular reason Pop was changed to be like that? Unrelated, but I've similarly heard Armour was calculated differently back in the day, but I don't know exactly what was different. Lotta changes that are poorly documented.


1- Because you are paying for Shock models. Situational is the case when you have to decide on whether you want to steal a weapon on the field or not and you don't have enough time for another squad to take it.

Armor (in case of Shocks) or good RA Elite infantry is only gonna help you slightly against infantry squads small arm fire without vet. Scatter weapons (vehicles), grenades, indirect fire or flame based weapons ignore all that.

Yes, a vet 0 Pio/Engineer might struggle a bit more, but any combat unit which gains real vet will offset the base stats of those units.

Which is why i suggested if weapon teams should gain RA with vet as well. The combination of ample amounts of light cover in mid to late game + weapon upgrades + vet basically cuts down the effectiveness of MGs overall.


2- Because it leds to weird behaviours whenever you tried to build a unit or call in it.

The UI doesn't show fractions therefore you could be at 90/100 popcap and instead really be at 90.4/100. While a constructed unit might stay in build queue till popcaps frees out, there were instances of call in units not been built and still consuming the resources.

Pip
16 Nov 2020, 00:19 AM
#514
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1580



1- Because you are paying for Shock models. Situational is the case when you have to decide on whether you want to steal a weapon on the field or not and you don't have enough time for another squad to take it.

Armor (in case of Shocks) or good RA Elite infantry is only gonna help you slightly against infantry squads small arm fire without vet. Scatter weapons (vehicles), grenades, indirect fire or flame based weapons ignore all that.

Yes, a vet 0 Pio/Engineer might struggle a bit more, but any combat unit which gains real vet will offset the base stats of those units.

Which is why i suggested if weapon teams should gain RA with vet as well. The combination of ample amounts of light cover in mid to late game + weapon upgrades + vet basically cuts down the effectiveness of MGs overall.


2- Because it leds to weird behaviours whenever you tried to build a unit or call in it.

The UI doesn't show fractions therefore you could be at 90/100 popcap and instead really be at 90.4/100. While a constructed unit might stay in build queue till popcaps frees out, there were instances of call in units not been built and still consuming the resources.



I mean, in the case of Shocks their survivability is almost entirely due to their armour/base RA. They only get a 17% bonus from Vet. They're still very survivable even without that bonus, but I suppose I see your point.

2 - That makes sense. Surprised Lelic didnt catch something like that during development... Well, actually, I suppose I'm not surprised.
16 Nov 2020, 01:40 AM
#515
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5279



Different doesn't mean, that they should get better versions than the origianl fractions.

They have 6men + merge, in 3vs3+ that mean endless Vet3 units. That isn't fair and if you call that asymetric balancing, than please visit the psychologists.

E.g. Osttruppen are balanced, the have quicker refesh, but for that they are easier to hit.

They get a "better" version if they take it. I say "better" because if you recrew it with anything but cons you are overpaying to reinforce it and cons have an above average target size.

Merge comes at lacking on field healing and ONLY having 3 buggy ladies that have to wank each and every man to get them into fighting shape- but sometimes a lad gets a little too into it and keeps the lass from moving on, assuming they don't get drawn to your allies to try and escape the soviet union....

Trade offs. Strengths and weaknesses.
Easier to keep units on the field, but spend more time in base when forced off.
16 Nov 2020, 04:28 AM
#516
avatar of Mr Carmine

Posts: 1231


They get a "better" version if they take it. I say "better" because if you recrew it with anything but cons you are overpaying to reinforce it and cons have an above average target size.

Merge comes at lacking on field healing and ONLY having 3 buggy ladies that have to wank each and every man to get them into fighting shape- but sometimes a lad gets a little too into it and keeps the lass from moving on, assuming they don't get drawn to your allies to try and escape the soviet union....

Trade offs. Strengths and weaknesses.
Easier to keep units on the field, but spend more time in base when forced off.


Well said. People tend to mis remember the thing soviets lack and only focus on stuff that works and automaticly deem it op regardless.
26 Nov 2020, 00:12 AM
#517
avatar of CODGUY

Posts: 875

jump backJump back to quoted post23 Sep 2020, 08:00 AMGiaA


What are these supposed weaknesses?


Well they probably have the worst armor suite in the game, atleast doctrinally. Their most of their crewed weapons are vastly inferior to what everyone else has, their non-doc armor isn't really THAT great either.
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