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The game slowly moves away from an historical WW2 game

14 Apr 2021, 12:58 PM
#41
avatar of Grim

Posts: 1041

And slowly becomes just a "flavoured" WW2 RTS game.

The latest balance patch did something more than just "balance" the game.
It implemented a number of changes that are completely against historical authenticity.

G43 rifle (while being similar to a sniper rifle thus good from a distance) gets changed to being good mid to close range. Really?

USF ambulance now takes 2 Panzer shots to kill. Its a car, not an armoured vehicle and even so in real life, if a tank would shoot an ambulance it would go boom with one shot.

I am playing this game because it is the most tactical and strategical RTS out there but also because it is a WW2 themed.

All these changes and more are turning the game away from a WW2 game and into becoming a custom RTS with a whiff of WW2.

I wonder if the magnificent balance team members have any clue or idea of the history of WW2 and the actual weapons, artilery and warfare being used.


if historical accuracy was practiced then:

Shermans and T34/85s would be 10 fuel.
-All axis air support abilities would be reduced to 90% effectiveness when fighting a western army.
-Fuel income for axis would be reduced for each minute of the game that passes.
-if you lose as axis your profile stands a chance of having the 'Nuremberg trials' debuff applied and you can no longer use the commander you selected in the match.
-UKF air supremacy reduced to 20 munitions but AoE covers the entire map and also overflows into other matches.


etc etc

You see, historical accuracy would be one slippery slope for the faction that, historically, lost.

Now, I'm not saying you have any faction preferences, PanzerKampf, but surely you see my point ;)
14 Apr 2021, 13:03 PM
#42
avatar of PanzerKampf

Posts: 266 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 12:58 PMGrim


if historical accuracy was practiced then:

Shermans and T34/85s would be 10 fuel.
-All axis air support abilities would be reduced to 90% effectiveness when fighting a western army.
-Fuel income for axis would be reduced for each minute of the game that passes.
-if you lose as axis your profile stands a chance of having the 'Nuremberg trials' debuff applied and you can no longer use the commander you selected in the match.
-UKF air supremacy reduced to 20 munitions but AoE covers the entire map and also overflows into other matches.


etc etc

You see, historical accuracy would be one slippery slope for the faction that, historically, lost.

Now, I'm not saying you have any faction preferences, PanzerKampf, but surely you see my point ;)


Sigh... please read my previous post:
" All I'm saying is let's not try to lose as little authenticity as we have now. Let's not lose anymore of it just for the sake of changing the game."

I want to preserve what little historical authenticity we currently have without losing more. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING.

Also read Kasarov's post explaining a change for the next patch that directly contradicts history.
14 Apr 2021, 13:17 PM
#43
avatar of blvckdream

Posts: 2418 | Subs: 1

I always feel very historically accurated when I press the button for AT-overwatch and Yuri and his friends start to blast off-map artillery with pinpoint accuracy against moving targets.
14 Apr 2021, 14:45 PM
#44
avatar of Esxile

Posts: 3459 | Subs: 1



Sigh... please read my previous post:
" All I'm saying is let's not try to lose as little authenticity as we have now. Let's not lose anymore of it just for the sake of changing the game."

I want to preserve what little historical authenticity we currently have without losing more. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING.

Also read Kasarov's post explaining a change for the next patch that directly contradicts history.


Like the Kubel wagon requiring two Jackson's shot to be taken down? It has been the case for years but you only see it problematic when it comes to the USF ambulance? What about the Openwagen truck requireing two shots as well? historically accurate?
14 Apr 2021, 15:10 PM
#45
avatar of ScipioNRE

Posts: 15

And slowly becomes just a "flavoured" WW2 RTS game.

The latest balance patch did something more than just "balance" the game.
It implemented a number of changes that are completely against historical authenticity
.


sounds great, remove all axis plane call ins. panther/tiger randomly breaks down and gets engine criticals. Soviets by the late stages of the war had 2x the amount of men on the front, simulate that by making conscripts 10man squads. would be historical, but not fun nor balanced. This is a Arcadey ww2 RTS, balance overtakes historical accuracy.
14 Apr 2021, 16:38 PM
#46
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

And slowly becomes just a "flavoured" WW2 RTS game.

The latest balance patch did something more than just "balance" the game.
It implemented a number of changes that are completely against historical authenticity.

G43 rifle (while being similar to a sniper rifle thus good from a distance) gets changed to being good mid to close range. Really?

USF ambulance now takes 2 Panzer shots to kill. Its a car, not an armoured vehicle and even so in real life, if a tank would shoot an ambulance it would go boom with one shot.

I am playing this game because it is the most tactical and strategical RTS out there but also because it is a WW2 themed.

All these changes and more are turning the game away from a WW2 game and into becoming a custom RTS with a whiff of WW2.

I wonder if the magnificent balance team members have any clue or idea of the history of WW2 and the actual weapons, artilery and warfare being used.


I gonna refute all your points by how the game was in 2013/2014 in the hands of Relic.

1- G43 has always been a close/mid range weapon that is good on the move and that it doesn't lose dmg at range.
http://www.coh2-stats.com/small_arms/jaeger_g43_rifle_mp

2-I'm wondering what all other micro light vehicles HP was:

Kubel: 190
http://www.coh2-stats.com/vehicles/kubelwagen_type_82_mp
Sws HT: 300
M3A1: 200
Dodge WC51: 180


I think you need to start to give better examples.
14 Apr 2021, 16:59 PM
#47
avatar of SupremeStefan

Posts: 1196



I think most people just skip his comments.


In fact, it's quite the opposite.
14 Apr 2021, 17:06 PM
#48
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13096 | Subs: 1



I gonna refute all your points by how the game was in 2013/2014 in the hands of Relic.

...

If want to pull history (although I do not see the point) G43 start as long range weapon...It could even fire at range above range 35 until it was turn into using carbine profile.
14 Apr 2021, 17:51 PM
#49
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 17:06 PMVipper

If want to pull history (although I do not see the point) G43 start as long range weapon...It could even fire at range above range 35 until it was turn into using carbine profile.


I'm under the impression that it was still godly at close range. I don't remember them having more range and it was mostly it's mobility the selling point.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/4304/jaeger-infantry-commander-viability
http://hardcoregamemode.blogspot.com/2013/07/guide-coh2-list-of-infantry-weapons-by.html


The point of bringing history is the context of OP post (the first one was invis due to flaming). He complains about the current state of the game and that Relic did a better job, when the points he brings out were already done by Relic at that time.
14 Apr 2021, 17:56 PM
#50
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2



I gonna refute all your points by how the game was in 2013/2014 in the hands of Relic.

1- G43 has always been a close/mid range weapon that is good on the move and that it doesn't lose dmg at range.
http://www.coh2-stats.com/small_arms/jaeger_g43_rifle_mp



I'm pretty sure the G43 used to be lomg range.

14 Apr 2021, 18:14 PM
#51
avatar of TheGentlemenTroll

Posts: 1044 | Subs: 1

I don't see how the g43 being close to mid range is relevant here. The mainline g43 (Grens and Fussies) have been more aggressive, mobile, mid range upgrades for a very long time.

Which is fine I guess. Like for grens if the g43 was shit at close range what would be the point of the upgrade? It wouldn't ever out dps the mg42 at long range so it would just make the g43s completely useless. There is also the sniper variant of g43s found on some elite squads, however that weapon profile is likely even less historically accurate since it has a inverse dps curve.
14 Apr 2021, 18:17 PM
#52
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 17:56 PMGiaA


I'm pretty sure the G43 used to be lomg range.



I put the stats for the weapon (prior to weapon profile rework). I'm not aware of any other source as any other had already been updated.

Even if we go by the game release version pre rework of all profiles, it still had higher dmg output that PG STG44 at close range while retaining mobility advantage.

The problem at that time, is that you could consider an LMG42 a close range weapon due to how profiles worked.


Check my 2nd response to Vipper for context.
14 Apr 2021, 19:15 PM
#53
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13096 | Subs: 1



I'm under the impression that it was still godly at close range. I don't remember them having more range and it was mostly it's mobility the selling point.

https://www.coh2.org/topic/4304/jaeger-infantry-commander-viability
http://hardcoregamemode.blogspot.com/2013/07/guide-coh2-list-of-infantry-weapons-by.html


The point of bringing history is the context of OP post (the first one was invis due to flaming). He complains about the current state of the game and that Relic did a better job, when the points he brings out were already done by Relic at that time.

It used to have range 40 and damage 27

Probably had some thing like 4.4 DPS at range 40 and 8.2 at 0 so I would call it long range.
Moving accuracy probably changes when it was turned into carbine but I am not sure.

I personally find history not very helpful especially small arm before weapon profiles where introduced. It was a different system at that time.
14 Apr 2021, 19:15 PM
#54
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 17:56 PMGiaA


I'm pretty sure the G43 used to be lomg range.


With old weapon profiles, even ppsh was a long range weapon.
14 Apr 2021, 20:47 PM
#55
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

And slowly becomes just a "flavoured" WW2 RTS game.

The latest balance patch did something more than just "balance" the game.
It implemented a number of changes that are completely against historical authenticity.

G43 rifle (while being similar to a sniper rifle thus good from a distance) gets changed to being good mid to close range. Really?

USF ambulance now takes 2 Panzer shots to kill. Its a car, not an armoured vehicle and even so in real life, if a tank would shoot an ambulance it would go boom with one shot.

I am playing this game because it is the most tactical and strategical RTS out there but also because it is a WW2 themed.

All these changes and more are turning the game away from a WW2 game and into becoming a custom RTS with a whiff of WW2.

I wonder if the magnificent balance team members have any clue or idea of the history of WW2 and the actual weapons, artilery and warfare being used.

This is a weird post because it ignores the fact that the G43 is a Semi-Automatic Rifle and it's profile being similar to the M1 Garand (except much stronger due to it being a limited upgrade) is perfectly realistic. Sniper G43's were less common than Sniper Kar 98k's, but the prized sniping rifle were actually Scoped Mosin-Nagants.

Also funny that you don't mention the Kubelwagen being able to survive a hit from an IS-2.


jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 08:19 AMA_E
I would agree that there's been too many tonal shifts in the name of balance, the worst offender will and always will be the penal battalions being an elite unit with the best equipment available.

For me the biggest irk is that the PPSh is less common than the MP40 and Sturmgewehr, when in reality it was the produced more than every other SMG combined, and that's not counting the PPD and PPS which they also produced in considerable numbers. If we wanted to be Authentic, Soviets would have a squad of troops with a full compliment of PPSh's as a default unit.
14 Apr 2021, 21:35 PM
#56
avatar of SkysTheLimit

Posts: 3362 | Subs: 1


USF ambulance now takes 2 Panzer shots to kill. Its a car, not an armoured vehicle and even so in real life, if a tank would shoot an ambulance it would go boom with one shot.

You know tanks don't require 4-8 penetrating shots to kill, right? And that soldiers can't take 5-6 bullets and just keep fighting?

Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of stuff in this game I don't like from a historical perspective. However complaining about units HP doesn't make any sense
14 Apr 2021, 21:35 PM
#57
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 682 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 19:15 PMKatitof

With old weapon profiles, even ppsh was a long range weapon.


It's not like weapon profiles were completely flat lol. There were long and short range weapons the differences were just less extreme.
14 Apr 2021, 21:50 PM
#58
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 09:58 AMVipper
The game covers a large area of time, if it was 1944 to 1945 one would not see KV-2 as Soviet unit.

Soviets and Ostheer are 1943-1944 based on unit selection and uniforms. For example the T-34-76 Model of 1943 is still their mainstay tank, but doctrines offer T-34-85 Model of 1944 and IS-2 Model of 1944, however the SU-100 is absent. Ostheer are using early-war uniforms and civilian coats in winter maps (to showcase the shortage of uniforms), and also have SdKfz 222's, Model G Panzer IV's, Model A Panthers, and Tiger I's.

USF and OKW are firmly late 1944 to early 1945, being explicitly based on the forces present for the Ardennes Counteroffensive, whilst the British Forces are based on the 1945 judging by the inclusion of the the Comet Tank which did not see action until the final months of the war; although it can also be noted that the Mk III helmet is suspiciously absent from UKF.



jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 11:14 AMKasarov
I don't necessarily agree with the term historical accuracy, as it carries the connotation that everything needs to be exact. However, I do agree that the game is less and less historically authentic. I think many balance changes, while good, are done in a way that gradually moves away from historical authenticity.

I am not necessarily upset at the balance team because they're still doing their best to keep the game alive, but I do wish some of the changes were a bit more nuanced and giving more attention to historical backing.

I really really dislike, for example, the addition of the Soviet M2HB in the next patch as it feels like a change for the sake of change, fulfilling basically the same role as DShK with a token buff to its arc. However, my biggest issue is that this also ignores the fact that the M2 .50cals the Soviets received were not infantry variants, but rather vehicle mounted varieties on tanks and halftracks. Instead, the Lend-Lease doctrine could have gotten something far more unique, interesting, and authentic, such as a DShK-armed Universal Carrier. If the balance team insists on sticking to the arbitrary requirement of 'no cross-faction vehicles,' (which IMO is a terrible precedent to set for any potential future updates) I'd rather have the doctrine's DShK remain as-is instead of swapping it out for a 'Lend-Lease .50' that isn't actually faithful to history.

"Balance comes before history" should never be an argument for ahistorical changes because there are always alternative methods that can satisfy BOTH historical authenticity AND gameplay balance.

I'm with you on that, I do think the team should avoid outright inventing things that did not exist. On the other hand it's probably too late for that because we already have Stun and Incendiary Stielhandgranate's which are both absolute fiction.
14 Apr 2021, 22:02 PM
#59
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 21:35 PMGiaA


It's not like weapon profiles were completely flat lol. There were long and short range weapons the differences were just less extreme.

Not flat, just linear.
Everything was a linear upgrade to basic dps curve.
14 Apr 2021, 23:50 PM
#60
avatar of arkpku

Posts: 34

I'm fine with the game at its current spot, but, history and balance aside, it would really be intuitive to substitute G43s with eg Stg44 (Volks stg performs very similar to fusilier G43 right?). It took me quite some time to figure out how these rifles were intended to perform.
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