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The game slowly moves away from an historical WW2 game

14 Apr 2021, 09:52 AM
#21
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13096 | Subs: 1



Irioincally, that *is* hisotorical accuracy, penal battalions were usually glorified infantry battalions with a large amount of men and really good equipment because they had to take the worst battles. I'll see if i can dig out the book i read about it.

I doubt that was case the through out the war.

The first penal battalion send to combat lost 2/3 of its strength in 3 days of attacks, so I doubt anyone would give the them best equipment and then sent them to die.
14 Apr 2021, 09:53 AM
#22
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



First of all I would like that core game mechanics that were there since the beginning of the game were not changed solely for the sake of changing and creating a balance patch.

I don't have time to detail every single change now but I will do so later if the thread still stands.


Which core mechanic changed since release, outside of infantry armor being replaced with rec accuracy?

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 09:52 AMVipper

I doubt that was case the through out the war.

The first penal battalion send to combat lost 2/3 of its strength in 3 days of attacks, so I doubt anyone would give the them best equipment and then sent them to die.

You'll be glad to hear that it couldn't be any less relevant what "first" of anything did, because multiplayer is set in 1944-45.
14 Apr 2021, 09:54 AM
#23
avatar of PanzerKampf

Posts: 266 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 09:53 AMKatitof

Which core mechanic changed since release, outside of infantry armor being replaced with rec accuracy?


Read the G43 bit in my original post.
14 Apr 2021, 09:55 AM
#24
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8



Read the G43 bit in my original post.

You mean.... like it was since release then?
It was always mid range weapon that excelled on the move on any unit that wasn't sniper.
14 Apr 2021, 09:58 AM
#25
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13096 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 09:53 AMKatitof

....
You'll be glad to hear that it couldn't be any less relevant what "first" of anything did, because multiplayer is set in 1944-45.

The game covers a large area of time, if it was 1944 to 1945 one would not see KV-2 as Soviet unit.

Fact remains that Shtrafbats sustain very heavy causalities and in many cases where used as cannon fodder.
A_E
14 Apr 2021, 09:58 AM
#26
avatar of A_E
Lead Caster Badge
Donator 11

Posts: 2417 | Subs: 6



Irioincally, that *is* hisotorical accuracy, penal battalions were usually glorified infantry battalions with a large amount of men and really good equipment because they had to take the worst battles. I'll see if i can dig out the book i read about it.


Sounds cool! Fair enough
14 Apr 2021, 10:04 AM
#27
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17583 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 09:58 AMVipper

The game covers a large area of time, if it was 1944 to 1945 one would not see KV-2 as Soviet unit.

You do realize that just because a unit was produced in the early war it does not mean it was not used at all stages of it?

Just like HMG 34 was not completely replaced by 42, KV tanks were not being made, it doesn't mean the ones already made weren't used until the end.

The whole soviet line of light tanks that were obsolete in European theater were moved to and dominating in asian front up until last days of war, to picture you an example.

Fact remains that Shtrafbats sustain very heavy causalities and in many cases where used as cannon fodder.

Fact remains, that is pure bullshit and you think of penal COMPANIES here, not battalions. The latter were compromised mostly of officers and were anything but expendable or cannon fodder.
14 Apr 2021, 10:16 AM
#29
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2000 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 09:58 AMVipper

The game covers a large area of time, if it was 1944 to 1945 one would not see KV-2 as Soviet unit.

Fact remains that Shtrafbats sustain very heavy causalities and in many cases where used as cannon fodder.



The game is not consistent at all. And it is a mess of various time periods. The game has infantry with uniforms up to 1943 and since 1943 we have homeless people for an unknown reason they turned out to be engineers of the Red Army. Katyusha produced in 1941, but there is no KV as the main one, only as a commander.

About penal battalions / companies. The penal battalion is the officers who have committed some kind of mistake. From lieutenant to general. And even the penal companies were well armed and supplied. In one of the memoirs of the officer, the commander of the penal company (privates and sergeants) said that ordinary soldiers were jealous of how much food and weapons we had. Because Katitof told you right. From the middle of the war, many soldiers began to appear in the penal companies who were the Germans' collaborationists and they owned MG machine guns and there were a lot of them in the penal companies. The point is that one of the most difficult tasks was assigned to the penals, but the equipment was also matched to these tasks. There is no point in sending out weakly armed people and expecting a successful result from this.
14 Apr 2021, 10:20 AM
#30
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 13096 | Subs: 1




The game is not consistent at all. And it is a mess of various time periods. The game has infantry with uniforms up to 1943 and since 1943 we have homeless people for an unknown reason they turned out to be engineers of the Red Army. Katyusha produced in 1941, but there is no KV as the main one, only as a commander.
...

Glad to see that we agree now try to explain that to people who claim "multiplayer is set in 1944-45."
14 Apr 2021, 10:33 AM
#31
avatar of PanzerKampf

Posts: 266 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 09:58 AMVipper

The game covers a large area of time, if it was 1944 to 1945 one would not see KV-2 as Soviet unit.


This.
14 Apr 2021, 11:14 AM
#33
avatar of Kasarov
Senior Modmaker Badge

Posts: 421 | Subs: 2

I don't necessarily agree with the term historical accuracy, as it carries the connotation that everything needs to be exact. However, I do agree that the game is less and less historically authentic. I think many balance changes, while good, are done in a way that gradually moves away from historical authenticity.

I am not necessarily upset at the balance team because they're still doing their best to keep the game alive, but I do wish some of the changes were a bit more nuanced and giving more attention to historical backing.

I really really dislike, for example, the addition of the Soviet M2HB in the next patch as it feels like a change for the sake of change, fulfilling basically the same role as DShK with a token buff to its arc. However, my biggest issue is that this also ignores the fact that the M2 .50cals the Soviets received were not infantry variants, but rather vehicle mounted varieties on tanks and halftracks. Instead, the Lend-Lease doctrine could have gotten something far more unique, interesting, and authentic, such as a DShK-armed Universal Carrier. If the balance team insists on sticking to the arbitrary requirement of 'no cross-faction vehicles,' (which IMO is a terrible precedent to set for any potential future updates) I'd rather have the doctrine's DShK remain as-is instead of swapping it out for a 'Lend-Lease .50' that isn't actually faithful to history.

"Balance comes before history" should never be an argument for ahistorical changes because there are always alternative methods that can satisfy BOTH historical authenticity AND gameplay balance.
14 Apr 2021, 11:23 AM
#34
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 2000 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post14 Apr 2021, 11:14 AMKasarov
I don't necessarily agree with the term historical accuracy, as it carries the connotation that everything needs to be exact. However, I do agree that the game is less and less historically authentic. I think many balance changes, while good, are done in a way that gradually moves away from historical authenticity.

I am not necessarily upset at the balance team because they're still doing their best to keep the game alive, but I do wish some of the changes were a bit more nuanced and giving more attention to historical backing.

I really really dislike, for example, the addition of the Soviet M2HB in the next patch as it feels like a change for the sake of change, fulfilling basically the same role as DShK with a token buff to its arc. However, my biggest issue is that this also ignores the fact that the M2 .50cals the Soviets received were not infantry variants, but rather vehicle mounted varieties on tanks and halftracks. Instead, the Lend-Lease doctrine could have gotten something far more unique, interesting, and authentic, such as a DShK-armed Universal Carrier. If the balance team insists on sticking to the arbitrary requirement of 'no cross-faction vehicles,' (which IMO is a terrible precedent to set for any potential future updates) I'd rather have the doctrine's DShK remain as-is instead of swapping it out for a 'Lend-Lease .50' that isn't actually faithful to history.

"Balance comes before history" should never be an argument for ahistorical changes because there are always alternative methods that can satisfy BOTH historical authenticity AND gameplay balance.


Yes. The Browning M2 supplied to the USSR was either a tank version. Or AA version like this.

14 Apr 2021, 11:45 AM
#35
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563

Ww2 is simply a theme. Coh 2 has never intended to be "realistic" in its life span. I suggest you switch to games like steel division that tries tonapply more realistic approach or find yourself arma 3 mod to play.
14 Apr 2021, 11:51 AM
#36
avatar of aerafield

Posts: 2689 | Subs: 4

PanzerKampf delivering memes like a champ
14 Apr 2021, 12:34 PM
#37
avatar of PanzerKampf

Posts: 266 | Subs: 1

Ww2 is simply a theme. Coh 2 has never intended to be "realistic" in its life span. I suggest you switch to games like steel division that tries tonapply more realistic approach or find yourself arma 3 mod to play.


Again, both balance and historical authenticity needs to be pursued and respected.

If you curtail historical authenticity too much in favor of balance then the game will no longer be a WW2 game but a simple custom sandbox RTS with a WW2 whiff.

I could also suggest you to go play something else if you are not keen on respecting this important aspect and part of the game: historical authenticity.
14 Apr 2021, 12:37 PM
#38
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 321

I pity you. This line is all you can come up with. Sad.


I think most people just skip his comments.
14 Apr 2021, 12:43 PM
#39
avatar of Aarotron

Posts: 563



Again, both balance and historical authenticity needs to be pursued and respected.

If you curtail historical authenticity too much in favor of balance then the game will no longer be a WW2 game but a simple custom sandbox RTS with a WW2 whiff.

I could also suggest you to go play something else if you are not keen on respecting this important aspect and part of the game: historical authenticity.


You cant have the coh what most people play it for with realism. You always ave to sacrifice something.

Or does your respect for authencity include isu 152 to be able to immomiblize/kill the crew with every he shot regardless of vehicle? Elefant getting engine busted within short intervals? Elite infantry loosing upgrades as paras and rangers didnt carry that many smgs in general per squad?
14 Apr 2021, 12:45 PM
#40
avatar of PanzerKampf

Posts: 266 | Subs: 1



You cant have the coh what most people play it for with realism. You always ave to sacrifice something.

Or does your respect for authencity include isu 152 to be able to immomiblize/kill the crew with every he shot regardless of vehicle? Elefant getting engine busted within short intervals? Elite infantry loosing upgrades as paras and rangers didnt carry that many smgs in general per squad?


All I'm saying is let's not try to lose as little authenticity as we have now. Let's not lose anymore of it just for the sake of changing the game.
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