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Rapid Conscription rework proposal (with implementation)

24 Jan 2021, 20:51 PM
#1
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 207

Introduction


Rapid Conscription is not a good ability. From what I gather, large chunk of the community feels like that the only way of fixing it is to completely remove it from the game. It's true that Rapid Conscription's problems go deeper than cost/duration/timing changes can fix. However, I like the idea and theme behind Rapid Conscription, so I tried coming up with a rework which would make it more flexible and easier to use.


Rework


Whenever 6 infantry entities/models are killed during Rapid Conscription, the player gets a free call-in Conscript Squad in their HQ. It doesn't cost any Manpower, but it still requires 7 free Population. It does not have to be called-in immediately, player may wait however long they want. Up to 3 "replacement squads" can be accumulated in reserve. After a squad is called in, there is 24 seconds recharge time for calling in another (equal to Conscript Squad production time).


How it works


1. Rapid Conscription is activated.
2. Whenever an infantry model dies, player gains "replacement squad charge". Up to 18 charges might be stored by a player.
3. To call-in the free replacement Conscript Squad, player must have at least 6 charges.
4. When the squad is called in, 6 charges are removed from player. The squad is a regular Conscript Squad.
5. Rapid Conscription ends.
6. All charges accumulated during Rapid Conscription and not spent on replacement squads still remain. The player can still call-in replacement squads, assuming they have at least 6 charges stored.


Gameplay perspective


The aspect of "recycling" Manpower with Munitions is still present, but circumstances in which it can be effectively used are less oppressive. It's up to player to decide when do they want to receive "free" squads. Instead of taxing them with additional upkeep and clogging their population, player can wait to lose a squad before calling-in "free" replacement.

Additionally, unlike live version of Rapid Conscription, any "charges" stored are not lost between activations. In live, if you're one model short of a free squad - tough luck, you get nothing. In this rework, you'd still have 5 charges stored, making getting a free squad much easier on next Rapid Conscription activation.

Due to inconsistencies surrounding casualties (further explained in this thread), infantry models will never become "crawlers" when Rapid Conscription is active in this rework - they will always die instead. From what I know, only Ostheer's casualty interrogation directly interacts with casualties, so the overall impact of such workaround is fairly small (but sadly it's still there).


Implementation


Here's mod of the rework on Steam Workshop: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2372877239

Here are mod files: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-SjTQ9g96awnygSW4Q15wstRqfpfW2T4/view?usp=sharing

Here's a video demonstration:



Balance


Maximum number of squads "in reserve" requires fine-tuning. In live, you're getting at most 480 mp for 120 munitions, so 4-to-1 ratio. Absolute best possible ratios in this rework with maximum of 2 or 3 "reserve" squads are 10-to-1 or 12-to-1 respectively, but that's assuming that player loses respectively 30 or 36 models in 1 minute AND calls-in replacement squads as soon as they are available. Price and duration are subject to change of course and I'd like to hear how people would price this ability. Also, even with this rework, I think Rapid Conscription should be available earlier, maybe at 4 CP.

In the end, specifics are left for the community and balance team. I'm not an authority in balance, I just like to mod weird stuff.


Closing words


Another popular idea in the community is to replace Rapid Conscription and Relief Infantry with Recoup Losses equivalent. This is also a very good solution, which has already received positive feedback in Sander93's personal balance mod, but I'm a fan of asymmetrical design, so avoiding copy-pasted abilities is preferable to me. Rapid Conscription is better candidate of the two abilities for such rework, because Conscripts can merge and get 7-man upgrade.

Before anyone asks - yes, I know that current patch's focus is on fixing core elements of factions. Even so, the patch after this one (If There Is One™) will likely make changes to commanders and (frankly) I just want to discuss whether such rework makes sense and can redeem Rapid Conscription.
24 Jan 2021, 21:03 PM
#2
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3091 | Subs: 2

2 questions on my part since this is very interesting mechanic wise to me:

1. What do you have in mind for Relief Infantry, something similar or entirely different? I'd be all for a somewhat same system but with more unique Osttruppen that you can get which can merge or something else.

2. Do you think this is also possible for tanks as well, ala American Industry or whatever it was called for the US in CoH's Armor Company? It's been a while since I checked the modding tools so this intrigues me if it's possible.
24 Jan 2021, 21:15 PM
#3
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 207

2 questions on my part since this is very interesting mechanic wise to me:

1. What do you have in mind for Relief Infantry, something similar or entirely different? I'd be all for a somewhat same system but with more unique Osttruppen that you can get which can merge or something else.


I don't have anything in particular for Relief Infantry sadly. Adding merging to Osttruppen is possible, but I think that goes against overall faction design, as merge is Soviet's niche.


2. Do you think this is also possible for tanks as well, ala American Industry or whatever it was called for the US in CoH's Armor Company? It's been a while since I checked the modding tools so this intrigues me if it's possible.


Yes. Allied War Machine can be implemented exactly as it was in CoH1's Armor Company. If I'm not mistaken, "Soviet War Machine" was also a thing in CoH2 beta, but that's something for beta players to confirm.

Also, it would be 100% possible to make such "rework" ability (i.e. gaining a tank "in reserve") for vehicles as well, though it would be much stronger in my opinion and would go against CoH's "unit preservation" game design. With Rapid Conscription/Relief Infantry, you don't have to lose entire squad to trigger the ability, but its unavoidable for vehicles.
24 Jan 2021, 21:37 PM
#4
avatar of NorthWeapon
Donator 11

Posts: 583

Why is Rapid Conscription bad?
24 Jan 2021, 23:06 PM
#5
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2021, 21:15 PMOlekman
I don't have anything in particular for Relief Infantry sadly. Adding merging to Osttruppen is possible, but I think that goes against overall faction design, as merge is Soviet's niche.


I had a proposal once that Rapid Conscription and Relief Infantry would grant 'reinforcement squads' that could not be reinforced, had crew weapons, and their only ability was Merge. The idea was they were strictly for field reinforcement, you would just merge them back into units until the squad was gone. That could still work for the Germans.
Pip
25 Jan 2021, 01:32 AM
#6
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1557



I had a proposal once that Rapid Conscription and Relief Infantry would grant 'reinforcement squads' that could not be reinforced, had crew weapons, and their only ability was Merge. The idea was they were strictly for field reinforcement, you would just merge them back into units until the squad was gone. That could still work for the Germans.


Alternately, both abilities could simply be passives that reduce reinforcement costs and/or increase reinforcement speeds. If the latter this might require being an active ability for Munitions, and it's honestly not that interesting.

A further proposal; Rapid Conscription/Relief infantry are passives that provide infantry/team weapons with the ability to reinforce normally, or instead hit a different key to reinforce more cheaply/rapidly, but with a different model with lower statistics. (Conscripts (Or ideally some other, more unique looking model) and Ostruppen respectively.).

I'm not certain if it's possible (Or if there's UI room) to add the second option... though it fulfils (sort of) the role of rapidly reinforcing a squad to get it back onto the battlefield.
25 Jan 2021, 01:53 AM
#7
avatar of general_gawain

Posts: 890

I do think a big problem of Rapid Conscription / Relief Infantry is that you don't want to add new Vet0 Conscript or Osttruppen squads in later game stages. The mechanic of the game is to keep vetted troops alive and add in more powerful higher tech units. So this ability gets rapidly weaker with time.

So just a quick thought I had as I was reading this: While ability is active you get a chunck of manpower for each soldier dying. Easy to implement at both factions and a real helpful ability if you are still playing with mass infantry / team weapons in the late game and your opponent is bleeding you out. You are swapping munition for manpower in the end. You can cap manpower you get at some point of course.
25 Jan 2021, 03:32 AM
#8
avatar of Crecer13

Posts: 1919 | Subs: 2

I have never liked abilities that give something that is not needed. The British Infantry Section at CoH1, US Officers at CoH2 and Rapid Conscription which give a bunch of conscripts which are... bad. Maybe instead of replacing the lost infantry units, focus on the safekeeping of veteran units. And for example, give one free reinforcements in exchange for 2-3 lost models.
25 Jan 2021, 04:43 AM
#9
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jan 2021, 01:32 AMPip
Alternately, both abilities could simply be passives that reduce reinforcement costs and/or increase reinforcement speeds. If the latter this might require being an active ability for Munitions, and it's honestly not that interesting.


I've been told that this is a bad idea because there is no counterplay, which is why Recoup Losses was removed as well iirc. The solution of presenting a physical squad at least theoretically allows you to counter or mitigate the ability by killing members of the reinforcement teams.
25 Jan 2021, 07:30 AM
#10
avatar of Kurobane

Posts: 484

I would rather see Rapid Conscription be a simpler ability where it would passively increase reinforce speed and possibly lower the manpower reinforcement cost by 2 or something to that effect for both the soviet/german version for Conscripts/Grenadiers
25 Jan 2021, 08:16 AM
#11
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 207

Why is Rapid Conscription bad?


It comes late, the best possible pay-off (480 mp) is not very high and scenarios where you can use it to full extent are hard to come by.



I had a proposal once that Rapid Conscription and Relief Infantry would grant 'reinforcement squads' that could not be reinforced, had crew weapons, and their only ability was Merge. The idea was they were strictly for field reinforcement, you would just merge them back into units until the squad was gone. That could still work for the Germans.


Yes, I remember discussing that solution too. At first I thought it was a sound idea, but in the end it's just a very roundabout way of doing Recoup Losses where you can only spend the extra MP on infantry. I think overall adding a new squad into the game for just that purpose is not worth it, so in my opinion Relief Infantry can just become Recoup Losses (with a name change and the "crawlers" fix, so it respectively makes more sense and triggers consistently).

I do think a big problem of Rapid Conscription / Relief Infantry is that you don't want to add new Vet0 Conscript or Osttruppen squads in later game stages. The mechanic of the game is to keep vetted troops alive and add in more powerful higher tech units. So this ability gets rapidly weaker with time.

So just a quick thought I had as I was reading this: While ability is active you get a chunck of manpower for each soldier dying. Easy to implement at both factions and a real helpful ability if you are still playing with mass infantry / team weapons in the late game and your opponent is bleeding you out. You are swapping munition for manpower in the end. You can cap manpower you get at some point of course.


The main idea behind this rework was that you can get those replacement squads when you need them, not just when the ability is active.

No matter how good a player is, they are going to lose units. Thing is, you can't tell when it's going to happen, because as you said and as the game is designed - unit preservation is key. In live version of Rapid Conscription, you get replacement squads immediately when the ability is active. It's highly likely that you won't need those squads at that very moment, so you have a choice of either keeping them around (taking up your population and lowering your income) or, in case of Conscripts, merge them completely into existing squads to save MP.

In this rework version, you activate Rapid Conscription and gain a couple of squads in reserve while you're fighting and losing models as usual. You can call those squads immediately, just like in live to merge them into your troops and save some MP. Here's the important part though - those reserve squads can be kept in reserve indefinitely, so when you lose a squad further on during the match, you can immediately get a replacement for which you paid beforehand in Munitions (and model losses, but infantry squads will always lose models). Fresh Conscripts in late game aren't anyone's first choice, with 7-man squad they gain experience faster and can always be used to top-off veteran squads and weapon teams.

Plus, in live version, any lost models below 6 are lost between ability activations, but in this rework they are kept in the bank for next time.
25 Jan 2021, 08:23 AM
#12
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12462 | Subs: 1

I would rather see that the ability provide squads with target size and merge that can not reinforce.
25 Jan 2021, 10:30 AM
#13
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 307

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2021, 20:51 PMOlekman

Introduction




+1 for the lay-out of your idea and the modded preview!


I think this is a great way of making the ability more attractive, and frnakly useable. At the moment each Soviet commander with the ability is treated as a commander with just 4 abilities.


As others suggested, I think the same could be applied to the 'relief infantry' ability.
25 Jan 2021, 11:06 AM
#14
avatar of WAAAGH2000

Posts: 697

Interesting and good idea,but I still think like OKW Firestorm commander lost infantry and return some MP,or just ammunition switch MP will more easy to work
25 Jan 2021, 11:35 AM
#15
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12462 | Subs: 1



I've been told that this is a bad idea because there is no counterplay, which is why Recoup Losses was removed as well iirc. The solution of presenting a physical squad at least theoretically allows you to counter or mitigate the ability by killing members of the reinforcement teams.

The no counter play argument makes little sense.

Armor vehicles crew have bonuses with not counter plays for instance.

Imo small passive bonuses could work as abilities for COh2.
25 Jan 2021, 16:19 PM
#16
avatar of A. Soldier

Posts: 3091 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Jan 2021, 21:15 PMOlekman


I don't have anything in particular for Relief Infantry sadly. Adding merging to Osttruppen is possible, but I think that goes against overall faction design, as merge is Soviet's niche.




Yes. Allied War Machine can be implemented exactly as it was in CoH1's Armor Company. If I'm not mistaken, "Soviet War Machine" was also a thing in CoH2 beta, but that's something for beta players to confirm.

Also, it would be 100% possible to make such "rework" ability (i.e. gaining a tank "in reserve") for vehicles as well, though it would be much stronger in my opinion and would go against CoH's "unit preservation" game design. With Rapid Conscription/Relief Infantry, you don't have to lose entire squad to trigger the ability, but its unavoidable for vehicles.


Well I mean OKW also got a Tiger, which was supposedly the Ost's niche...

Anyway, point is Conscripts will still remain the vanilla unit with the ability, while these "Relief Infantry" Osttruppen that could merge or something can just be unique to said ability, and thus only to the few doctrines that use the ability is what I'm pointing at.

But really your idea and a unique Osttruppen unit that can merge I think sort of fits in with the whole "Relief" part of the ability.

Unless they make some sort of other unit to replace the ability altogether using the Weapon Crew models, that could also word as they have helmets and nice looking uniforms as well.

And yeah I get you as far as the vehicles go, but like I said I was more interested in the technical aspect of it, if it was possible in the first place.
Pip
25 Jan 2021, 16:26 PM
#17
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1557



Well I mean OKW also got a Tiger, which was supposedly the Ost's niche...

Anyway, point is Conscripts will still remain the vanilla unit with the ability, while these "Relief Infantry" Osttruppen that could merge or something can just be unique to said ability, and thus only to the few doctrines that use the ability is what I'm pointing at.

But really your idea and a unique Osttruppen unit that can merge I think sort of fits in with the whole "Relief" part of the ability.

Unless they make some sort of other unit to replace the ability altogether using the Weapon Crew models, that could also word as they have helmets and nice looking uniforms as well.

And yeah I get you as far as the vehicles go, but like I said I was more interested in the technical aspect of it, if it was possible in the first place.


Aren't there any unused models hanging around in the files?

Weapon Crew models, OStruppen or even Volks would probably be the most fitting for "Rapidly conscripted" troops... though of course Volk models shouldn't really enter the OST unit set.
25 Jan 2021, 16:47 PM
#18
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5268

From a lore and gameplay perspective I don't think ostroppen should merge with proper squads, only crews. I foresee merging into the likes of grens whom already perform well at range or pgrens (whom the extra rec acc will definitely help offset) are too high impact. Especially with grens damage reduction with vet and long range focus and for pgrens the ability to sling shreks... I could imagine a double shrek squad, backed up with a 6 man snare that can reinforce one of the strongest AT squads around....
25 Jan 2021, 16:48 PM
#19
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jan 2021, 11:35 AMVipper

The no counter play argument makes little sense.

Armor vehicles crew have bonuses with not counter plays for instance.

Imo small passive bonuses could work as abilities for COh2.


No counter play in regards to resource manipulation.
25 Jan 2021, 16:59 PM
#20
avatar of Vipper

Posts: 12462 | Subs: 1



No counter play in regards to resource manipulation.

Reducing reinforcement cost as suggested in really much different than air dropping support weapon when it comes to "resources manipulation".
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