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Rapid Conscription rework proposal (with implementation)

25 Jan 2021, 17:23 PM
#21
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 186 | Subs: 2

I Agree that Rapid Conscription needs to be reworked but i think the solution OP provided is too convoluted. We are not sure how many patches this game still has in it so I'd personally rather the ability becomes simple and usefull. My proposal would be a very simple muni for manpower exchange.

Let's say 100 muni for 300 manpower for example. It would be fairly easy to tweak the price and payout to a balanced state. It would also be thematic within the faction and obviously useful.
25 Jan 2021, 17:59 PM
#22
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jan 2021, 16:59 PMVipper

Reducing reinforcement cost as suggested in really much different than air dropping support weapon when it comes to "resources manipulation".


As far as design goes, it does. While the end result is the same, the way it's presented is different.

I Agree that Rapid Conscription needs to be reworked but i think the solution OP provided is too convoluted. We are not sure how many patches this game still has in it so I'd personally rather the ability becomes simple and usefull. My proposal would be a very simple muni for manpower exchange.

Let's say 100 muni for 300 manpower for example. It would be fairly easy to tweak the price and payout to a balanced state. It would also be thematic within the faction and obviously useful.


Immediate conversion abilities has been phased out of the game.
25 Jan 2021, 18:26 PM
#23
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 207

I think this is a great way of making the ability more attractive, and frnakly useable. At the moment each Soviet commander with the ability is treated as a commander with just 4 abilities.


Yeah, commanders with Rapid Conscription and Relief Infantry are at a disadvantage.


From a lore and gameplay perspective I don't think ostroppen should merge with proper squads, only crews. I foresee merging into the likes of grens whom already perform well at range or pgrens (whom the extra rec acc will definitely help offset) are too high impact. Especially with grens damage reduction with vet and long range focus and for pgrens the ability to sling shreks... I could imagine a double shrek squad, backed up with a 6 man snare that can reinforce one of the strongest AT squads around....


I think that merging only with weapon crews could be done with target_requirements, but I still think that Ostruppen shouldn't merge. I would be fine with making Relief Infantry a clone of Recoup Losses, but perhaps some other interesting solution which fits Ostheer's theme could be found. I'd love to hear more ideas and evaluate whether it would be possible to implement them.

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jan 2021, 16:59 PMVipper
Reducing reinforcement cost as suggested in really much different than air dropping support weapon when it comes to "resources manipulation".

Messing with economy in a way that can't be punished is not something to be done lightly. Soviet Industry is prime example of that.
25 Jan 2021, 18:36 PM
#24
avatar of flyingpancake

Posts: 186 | Subs: 2



As far as design goes, it does. While the end result is the same, the way it's presented is different.



Immediate conversion abilities has been phased out of the game.


What about the various fuel airdrops from Ost and soviet?
25 Jan 2021, 18:46 PM
#25
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17581 | Subs: 8



What about the various fuel airdrops from Ost and soviet?

Both have counterplay.
Old resource exchanging abilities didn't, you just clicked ability and turned one resource into another.
25 Jan 2021, 19:22 PM
#26
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 207

I Agree that Rapid Conscription needs to be reworked but i think the solution OP provided is too convoluted. We are not sure how many patches this game still has in it so I'd personally rather the ability becomes simple and usefull.


Is it really that convoluted? It triggers in exact same way - spend muni, gain benefit when entities die - except player decides when they want to cash-in their replacement squads, not the game.

If anything, I thought it would be much easier to grasp than a dedicated replacement squad which wouldn't be able to reinforce or fight effectively and only be there to merge into another squad (which again, is just really roundabout way of doing Recoup Losses when you think about it).
Pip
25 Jan 2021, 20:01 PM
#27
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1579

I honestly think the more complex ideas involving "Merge squads" or similar is much preferable to "Recoup losses" or god forbid the current version of the abilities.

The current system (and arguably recoup losses) incentivises losing models, if you don't lose anything (Or too few) during activation you've basically wasted the ability... but losing models really shouldn't be encouraged.

It's pretty esoteric, but the "Merge squads" feel as though they fit the game much better, as strange as that sounds.


Another suggestion might be: Using Rapid Conscription or Relief Infantry would produce several infantry models around the faction's home base, which could instantly join squads that attempt to reinforce. You'd basically be paying "in advance" for reinforcements. (Or, rather than actually having models milling around the base, they could just be some sort of counter on the ability)
25 Jan 2021, 20:48 PM
#28
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5272

the fundemental problem with these abilities is the way the game has changed so dramaticly.

cons were supposed to be untis that were used to build up the units around them. the blood that kept the soviet war machine ticking- not primary combatants. with this in mind rapid conscription had value in ensuring the blood was there to pump. cons were supposed to be expendable, the rapid replacement of them emphasised that greatly.

now however, cons are true-ish mainline infantry, designed to be used alone and as any other mainline, not as support (not that that role even really worked because they were so bad and the units they were to support were either trash or better without the 240+ support techs of conscript)

with such a heavy weight on vet now, replacement squads as a whole are basically a waste, whats more the 13 seconds you have to lose enough men to make the ability worth anything just doesnt wash and goes so hard against the core of the game. the last wave of nerfs the un-used abilities got that decreased their already trivial usage windows and rewards was like digging up the bones of an ancient war steed to smash em with a hammer.

having to replace a con squad late game is dreadful, even with the new 7 man bonuses, you are taking a unit that relies almost entierly on vet and thrusting it into a battle of vetted units and high explosives. while no doubt lore accurate it leaves the ability in a strange place....

the proposed ability rework is likely the best there is, though the ability asa concept is fundamentally useless...

OST reserves on the other hand, while it absolutely does run into a very similar issue, at the very least ostroppen offer something the stock roster doesnt have - ostroppen. regardless of how bad the ability is, it can find a niche in giving you something you do not have. ostoppen are still more men than normal ost squads and still reinforce cheaply, though the new AT gun changes will no doubt put even this absolute niche use to death...
reserves attractiveness hinges much on the viability of ostroppen, of whom the main attraction is early deployment and cheap cost, neither of which the ability affords the faction.



perhaps if these abilities allowed the replacement squads come pre upgraded they might have a smidge more merit, as the squad is coming in with no vet, but no additional muni investment as well. in the case of the soviet this may prove useful, as otherwise ill just build a con squad when i need one and end up saving munitions on the whole....
25 Jan 2021, 21:03 PM
#29
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 207

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jan 2021, 20:01 PMPip
The current system (and arguably recoup losses) incentivises losing models, if you don't lose anything (Or too few) during activation you've basically wasted the ability... but losing models really shouldn't be encouraged.


It's less about encouraging losing models, more about getting pay-back for models you're going to lose during engagements anyway. Allied War Machine in CoH1 did actually incentivized straight up losing vehicles, especially expensive ones, to get anything out of the ability.

[...]
perhaps if these abilities allowed the replacement squads come pre upgraded they might have a smidge more merit, as the squad is coming in with no vet, but no additional muni investment as well. in the case of the soviet this may prove useful, as otherwise ill just build a con squad when i need one and end up saving munitions on the whole....



Very solid write of the place of such abilities in current meta. One thing I could add though about units already arriving upgraded. One alternative to this rework is that instead of receiving additional Conscript Squads "in reserve", there would be just a single "reserve" Conscript Squad which gains veterancy levels with every 6 infantry models lost. Less "Rapid Conscription" and more like "Learning from the Fallen".

However, as Vetaran Riflemen ability and original Elite Troops Doctrine shows, giving out vetted squads is also something that should be done very lightly. In this case, the squads would arrive much later, so the careful balance of early game wouldn't be affected.
Pip
25 Jan 2021, 21:10 PM
#30
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1579

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jan 2021, 21:03 PMOlekman


It's less about encouraging losing models, more about getting pay-back for models you're going to lose during engagements anyway. Allied War Machine in CoH1 did actually incentivized straight up losing vehicles, especially expensive ones, to get anything out of the ability.




Very solid write of the place of such abilities in current meta. One thing I could add though about units already arriving upgraded. One alternative to this rework is that instead of receiving additional Conscript Squads "in reserve", there would be just a single "reserve" Conscript Squad which gains veterancy levels with every 6 infantry models lost. Less "Rapid Conscription" and more like "Learning from the Fallen".

However, as Vetaran Riflemen ability and original Elite Troops Doctrine shows, giving out vetted squads is also something that should be done very lightly. In this case, the squads would arrive much later, so the careful balance of early game wouldn't be affected.


I mean, sure, but it still incentivises you to play much more riskily during the window the ability is "in use", as you get nothing if you don't lose enough models... and even with the proposed rework you'll need to lose a certain number of models per activation for it to really be "worth it". This is exacerbated by the short period that these abilities are even active.

Regarding the last paragraph of your post: I think so long as you're "Earning" the experience that allows you call in a veteran squad it would be far less terrible for balance than the old "Elite Troops" and "Veteran Riflemen" abilities... though getting veteran squads is sort of the opposite of "Rapid conscription".


Snibedy snab :DD


While i do agree with your sentiment, I'd have to argue that I'd much rather get a Conscript squad lategame, (particularly with Mobilise Reserves) than an Ostruppen squad. The Conscript squad at least provides massive utility, and vets quite quickly... whereas Ostruppen are absolute garbage at that point in the game.

If I'm being entirely honest, I think scrapping the abilities entirely looking for other design space to fill the gaps might be better.

25 Jan 2021, 22:03 PM
#31
avatar of NorthWeapon
Donator 11

Posts: 588

Rapid Conscription adds flavor to Soviets. I think just buff it. Make the munitions cheaper, or make it so it takes less models to create a new squad.

Same thing for Ostheer
25 Jan 2021, 22:11 PM
#32
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17581 | Subs: 8

Once upon a time it provided penals.
Pip
25 Jan 2021, 22:40 PM
#33
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1579

Rapid Conscription adds flavor to Soviets. I think just buff it. Make the munitions cheaper, or make it so it takes less models to create a new squad.

Same thing for Ostheer


Just because it "Adds flavour" doesn't mean that it's good design, or that it should be kept around.
25 Jan 2021, 23:21 PM
#34
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5272

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jan 2021, 21:10 PMPip

While i do agree with your sentiment, I'd have to argue that I'd much rather get a Conscript squad lategame, (particularly with Mobilise Reserves) than an Ostruppen squad. The Conscript squad at least provides massive utility, and vets quite quickly... whereas Ostruppen are absolute garbage at that point in the game.

If I'm being entirely honest, I think scrapping the abilities entirely looking for other design space to fill the gaps might be better.



thats a problem with the current implementation of ostroppen though, not necessarily the ability (although the ability is kinda butts right now as well, but we are tryin to work on that!), thats why im thinking if it comes preupgraded, it may not be quite as bad, hell, it might even be worth using earlier in the game to try and leverage the upgrade and gain some vet.
could even try something more like 2 DP28s instead of neutered lmg42, it would allow the dps to be spread across 2 models instead of concentrated on 1 and as a whole give the squad more supportive bite and differentiate them from grens.

really do like the spirit behind the ost ability, since it DOES offer something new and potentially dynamic. its mostly implimemntation there though.

the soviet one on the optherhand.... pay munitions and manpower to get a fresh t0 squad you could build at any time that is no different THAN the one you can build at any time is rather silly.

the more i think about it, coming preupgraded would at least offer a windo of opprotunity for both abilities if the CP is right as well... i literally cant tell you what the current CP is though because the abiltiies are so bad they basicly kill the commanders they are in and i dont think i have EVER seen them in the last many years....
Pip
25 Jan 2021, 23:25 PM
#35
avatar of Pip

Posts: 1579



thats a problem with the current implementation of ostroppen though, not necessarily the ability (although the ability is kinda butts right now as well, but we are tryin to work on that!), thats why im thinking if it comes preupgraded, it may not be quite as bad, hell, it might even be worth using earlier in the game to try and leverage the upgrade and gain some vet.
could even try something more like 2 DP28s instead of neutered lmg42, it would allow the dps to be spread across 2 models instead of concentrated on 1 and as a whole give the squad more supportive bite and differentiate them from grens.

really do like the spirit behind the ost ability, since it DOES offer something new and potentially dynamic. its mostly implimemntation there though.

the soviet one on the optherhand.... pay munitions and manpower to get a fresh t0 squad you could build at any time that is no different THAN the one you can build at any time is rather silly.

the more i think about it, coming preupgraded would at least offer a windo of opprotunity for both abilities if the CP is right as well... i literally cant tell you what the current CP is though because the abiltiies are so bad they basicly kill the commanders they are in and i dont think i have EVER seen them in the last many years....


I think an OST player would probably just prefer to be able to build Osttruppen, rather than have to use a gimmicky ability to get them.
26 Jan 2021, 00:44 AM
#36
avatar of zerocoh

Posts: 926

there is nothing wrong with rapid conscription, the problem is that is only on weird commanders...
with the new cons and 7 men squads this ability is actually pretty good now if you lose squads late game
26 Jan 2021, 01:22 AM
#37
avatar of thedarkarmadillo

Posts: 5272

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jan 2021, 23:25 PMPip


I think an OST player would probably just prefer to be able to build Osttruppen, rather than have to use a gimmicky ability to get them.

im sure they would, but it kinda dilutes the game a bit to have what would then be 4 commanders with the same ostroppen call in and 1 with the 3 cp one. a lil diversity within would necessarily be a bad thing.

jump backJump back to quoted post26 Jan 2021, 00:44 AMzerocoh
there is nothing wrong with rapid conscription, the problem is that is only on weird commanders...
with the new cons and 7 men squads this ability is actually pretty good now if you lose squads late game


the problem with rapid conscription as said above is that at any point you want to replace a con squad you can do so in your t0. no hoops for a unit you always have available to you. cons ARE decent now, good even, but spending a heap of muni and having to lose models for a squad you then need to spend more muni on to save like 100mp dis a really bad conversion rate. and you might not even get the value out of popping the ability now either since the duration was shortened dramatically.

if it gave penals you might see more use actually as it would give a unit you may not have access to, one that doesnt need muni investment and one that would otherwise be expensive to side tech to- though they would still be squishy as fuck...

26 Jan 2021, 08:37 AM
#38
avatar of JulianSnow

Posts: 312

OST reserves on the other hand, while it absolutely does run into a very similar issue, at the very least ostroppen offer something the stock roster doesnt have - ostroppen.


Like ostruppen are something you don't get stock, so are conscripts with DP28's?

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Jan 2021, 21:03 PMOlekman

However, as Vetaran Riflemen ability and original Elite Troops Doctrine shows, giving out vetted squads is also something that should be done very lightly. In this case, the squads would arrive much later, so the careful balance of early game wouldn't be affected.


New units shouldn't enter vetted. The whole game revolves around wiping enemy units gaining the vetted advantage, but not if the enemy gets new-vetted units. It will just create a stalemate or a titalwave on your opponent. Think of the possibility; you lose 18 models from across 4 squads, but no entire squads, then you get 3 new vetted squads from the ability.
26 Jan 2021, 08:57 AM
#39
avatar of Olekman
Modmaker Badge

Posts: 207

It will just create a stalemate or a titalwave on your opponent. Think of the possibility; you lose 18 models from across 4 squads, but no entire squads, then you get 3 new vetted squads from the ability.


You misunderstood me - it's not that you would get 3 squads with vet, but only one squad with vet, that would receive progressively more vet with every 6 models lost.

Something like this:
1. You lose 6 models - you get to call-in a vet0 Conscript Squad.
2. You lose another 6 models (12 in total) - you get to call-in a vet1 Conscript Squad.
3. You lose another 6 models (18 in total) - you get to call-in a vet2 Conscript Squad.
4. You lose another 6 models (24 in total) - you get to call-in a vet3 Conscript Squad.
Once you call-in the squad, you reset the model loss counter to 0.

I still think one should be very careful with abilities that bring in vetted units, but it's less OP than what you described.

EDIT: Typos.
26 Jan 2021, 09:25 AM
#40
avatar of JibberJabberJobber

Posts: 1597 | Subs: 3

Many solutions could work, but I feel the simplest way to fix it is by just decreasing the optimal manpower ratio, then giving some secondary benefits and earlier timing to the ability, for example:

- Only 1 squad given for both abilities after losing 6 models.
- Now decreases production time for new units by 33% while active.
- Now decreases reinforce times for squads by 33% while active.
- CP requirement from 6 to 3.
- 80 muni for Osttruppen variant, 100 muni for Conscript variant.

Then so Osttruppen aren't worthless at that timing, they could get stock sandbags and no T4 lock on their lmg (so upgradeable from the get-go). Conscripts would do fine.

These changes keep timing important, as to get the most out of it you'd activate it while producing your shock unit or if lots of squads are reinforcing in base or both.
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