So what if the enemy bleeds your cons? They are cons ffs, that's their job to die cheaply for their utility.
Problem is that they die like flies until reaching vet3. Vet0 target size 1.1 or vet1-2 target size 1 means they will die to any fire incoming. 20mp reinforcement is not exactly cheap if you loose them a lot. Both conscript upgrades (PTRS and PPsH) have the problem that they don't synergize very well with the playing style of cons. Cons are dependent on building sandbags for green cover. PTRS AT-grenade ability and PPsH needs you to get close, mostly out in the open without cover.
With the introduction of 7th man upgrade which locks out PTRS and PPsH upgrade there is not much of a reason to go for PTRS cons anymore. Con squad with 7th soldier is more versatile (you can recrew two team weapons or just merge more), durable (more likely to retain its vet) and really cheap to reinforce. In comparison to PTRS cons they retain the molotov in addition.
I rather go for 1-2 PTRS penals and cons with seven men. And that is nondoctrinal on top. |
So in this scenario ur getting at-nades and mollys for ur 1 conscript squad? Waste
AT overwatch is better against tanks, but can use the bombing run to delete buildings too. Can still damage infantry as well, decrewed 2 paks with 1 ptab bombing run last night
Yeah that is the strange thing about AT BombRun. It is exeptional strong vs ambient buildings, quite good vs packed infantry / weapon teams and rather bad vs tanks. You don't get what you expect but something different instead.
Higher accuracy? THe cons arent going to miss tanks anyway. If ur talking about that slightly better performance against infantry, whoopty do u took a penal squad and gave it ptrs. In my build order all my penals stay in AI role
PTRS cons can miss Kubel, Hetzer or vet1 221/222/223. With vet1 "combat blitz"/"Blitzkrieg tactics" ability activated they can even miss a PZIV. PTRS penals will never miss any kind of vehicle/tank. So the higher accuracy is not useable versus infantry alone. |
Ptrs cons are amazing, i use em all the time in 2v2. If u changed the AT nade ability they would prob be too strong
My opening build order for that cmdr:
Conscript, t1, penal, penal, penal, conscript, (upgrade 1st con to ptrs) muni cache
U upgrade the 2nd con to ptrs around the time medium tank hit the field. Use the penals for ur infantry fighting force
Without choosing a commander I could go for:
Conscript, t1, penal, penal, penal, penal, (upgrade one penal to ptrs) muni cache
Using the cons for Hoorah + normal AT-grenade to have a way faster snare than PTRS cons snare and the lower ranged penal AT-satchel for slowed tanks. I can now combine any commander, for example NKVD for flame tank with vet1 "Inspire Infantry" to get those AT-satchels in. Commisar abilities help to win infantry fights. NKVDs AT-overwatch is a real strong AT source in addition that is way better than the BombRun in the late game. Especially useful vs the big cats.
I don't see this build as such special that it is worth choosing a commander for it. Maybe it was before penals got third PTRS with higher accuracy for all PTRS(in comparison to PRTS cons). AT is the only thing this commander can do, but other commanders don't do worse at that aspect plus having better AI tools. |
Yea it probably meant FMR, the combination of smoke can allow Penals not to get fire upon until they can close in on their target.
Yeah, I mistyped. You guessed right.
True, but cons are dirt cheap and expendable squad. I would much rather have a 240mp squad which I don't really care about throwing in front of tanks and hmgs rather than semi elit Penals that drop like flies. True the mini nuke can work wonders if you can time it properly.
The cons are the ones that drop like flies. On vet0 they habe target size 1,1 and on vet1 to vet2 they have still target size 1 while penal target size (received acc) lowers with every dropped man at least. Only at vet3 they are somehow about even overall. And I wouldn't call cons dirt cheap. Without seven man upgrade (reinforce reduction) they will drain your MP quite a bit if you throw them in front of tanks. And on top of it PTRS penals can do something vs infantry while PTRS cons can't.
If the throw couldn't be cancelled in the midth of its execution I would say PTRS cons are better as an AT unit at least. But I do think Inspire Infantry + PTRS penals + homing AT satchel is better and has way better AI options on top. If you look at the other abilities of the commander its funny that the best soviet AT offmaps are at other commanders (Rocket run and AT-Overwatch). This commander should have got heavy vehicle mines in its rework at least, but it is too late for that now. |
When PTRS Penal where introduced the unit has lost its role though since the overlap it simply too much.
Yeah, with the 3 PTRS penals the PTRS cons are obsolete now. Ambush is too situational and defensive to be a selling point for them if you ask me.
Penal PTRS Accuracy:
0.3/0.21/0.16
Conscript PTRS Accuracy:
0.15/0.105/0.06 to
To the last man and the higher accuracy boni of penal vet come on top and result in Penal PTRS beeing able to hit infantry while cons don't hit the barn at all. This plus the three remaining penals without PTRS having better AI than remaining cons means that PTRS penal squad has way better AI than PTRS con squad. I do think PTRS cons could be worth it if the 7th man upgrade wouldn't be locked out.
6 grenades will do 240 guaranteed damage up to 300 and one can finish with PTRS from single squad.
And if you want a 300+ damage snare with something like Hoorah that doesn't cancel in the mid of the throw, take a doctrine with KV-8, bring it to Vet1 and use "Inspire Infantry" on your PTRS penals. Or use mortar smoke to bring your PTRS penals in with FMA of Counterattack Tactics. I do think this has more uses than setting up an ambush and hoping for a tank driving by.
Yeah it honestly might be better at destroying OKW buildings than it is at destroying tanks. With the exception of heavy tanks/TDs, very good against those especially if stunned/engine damaged
It excels at destroying occupied ambient buildings. It should be called AntiBuilding Bomb. |
The point was to nerf the doctrine in any ways, not making it different.
The removal of combined arms would have been a nerf to the first problem I described. This combination was the main reason a nerf was needed if you ask me. It was a niche and somehow cheesy strat that existed in 1vs1. In 3vs3/4vs4 this commander was picked seldom anyways after the previous WC51 nerf which removed some team game strats.
And there is still the removal of Bulldozer Blade for 75mm, which would remain unchanged.
My proposal was to nerf AP RoF and add some more AOE while adding 10 range to AT shell, to solve the second problem I described. The problem that you should never take AT shell over AP shell at prenerf 76mm.
Offmap instead of Combined arms would have removed 1vs1 cheese and made this commander more viable for 3vs3/4vs4 in one go. Thats what I would call smarter balancing. |
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The main problems with the old 76 mm were:
- powerspike of 2x76mm timed attack with Combined arms
- because of the RoF of the AP shell it wasn't necessary at all to switch to the AT shell, because the lower penetration chance vs heavy tanks was equated but the RoF. In the end AP shell had similar DPS vs heavy armored targets and higher DPS vs all other targets including infantry of course
They should have just removed Combined Arms and replaced it with an offmap ability.
With the nerf to AP RoF 76mm got worse vs infantry and lightly armored targets. This should have been compensated by other means like buffing AOE of AP shell. AT shell could have 50 range to make it more appealing in addition. That way 76mm would have stayed unique and maybe more of an alternative to the Jackson/M4A3 combo.
In the end 76mm is at the same tier as Jackson, only 20 fuel between them. If major fuel cost would have been split in two parts somehow and Jackson would come later than all Sherman variants as a heavy tank counter, the 76mm would see way more action without another single buff. |
You also still have hoorah which also helps with seeing setting up the ability. But camo + hold fire is how you really use it, that way the tanks get close enough
Even with camo its hard to use the ability in time if the tank drives through. After all its mainly a snare, just with more damage. So you will need other AT sources either way. The main purpose for its use is the motor damage if you ask me. Camo and Hoorah helps to get into range but the tank will still just move backwards and the ability will be completely canceled. It only works vs bad/distracted players or tanks that fuck up their movement path while kiting. The first grenade should be thrown always at least. As another option the upgrade could give the multiple throw as an alternative ability and conserve the original AT grenade ability as a different one.
PTRS cons already suffer from beeing locked out from 7th man upgrade so they will stay to be more expensive to reinforce in the late game.
I can see it working in your AT team if other players help to pin down the tank for a moment (for example tulips) but that shouldn't be the situation the ability is balanced around.
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If you throw an AT-grenade or AT-satchel or shoot a panzerfaust the snare will hit the vehicle/tank always as long as it was in the range off the ability as you activated it. The projectile will surpass any obstacles and go as far as it has to. So a snare always hits once activated in range.
Only PTRS conscripts doing weird. I noticed that as I tested it ingame. Once you upgrade PTRS your cons will throw an AT-grenade per squad member alive instead of only one. Not all members at once, there is a delay. The weird thing: The whole animation thing has to be finished before the vehicle/tank leaves the range of the grenade. If the vehicle/tank leaves the range while the animation is ongoing the squad interrupts the throw and starts chasing the vehicle/tank to come into range again. But that will never happen of course.
This makes the ability pretty useless versus a half decent player which will keep his vehicles/tanks moving. The only strength of this commander should be the AT department since it comes without any good AI abilities or AI elite infantry. But somehow this fails. With AT-grenades not connecting, nondoctrinal penals with PTRS and AT-satchel seem to be the better choice, their PTRS are better vs infantry on top of it (accuracy).
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i just tried the cp4 + panther + brumbar build in 4v4 random
not ideal for 2 panthers in 4v4 imo.
it is costly and lacks vision. i dont know i keep getting hit by allies TD.
i wont mind replace the elefant with spotting scopes!
Without scouting its not as good for sure. You need vetted 222, forward positioned pios, a camouflaged sniper on hold fire or something like that. Using the plane which comes with the doctrine all the time is too expensive for sure. Or you need a teammate which has the hindsight to povide los with a unit like infrared HT.
Allied TDs need that vision with their own faction tools too. |
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